86kg 2020

[fightingsioux 50]

16 hours ago, headshuck said:

Even with Tayler healthy it’s Cox’s to lose. Cox won with one leg, covered in crisco and had chairs being tossed at him last time.

Do you happen to have a link to that match? TIA

[Coach_J 2,053]

1 hour ago, spladle08 said:

1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

Cox, if he can drop the weight.  Taylor if not.  Big drop off after those two but I'd go Ringer.  Nickal and Downey would be a fun bout to watch.  Valencia a little outgunned physically to roll with this crowd for the time being.  JMHO

I was just thinkin (in regards to Zahid and Marky), if either of then dont take an Olympic Shirt, which I think they will, i wonder if they would bump weights in college (gotta assune yes) unless going down.

Hall has said repeatedly that 74 kilos is too hard to make.  He's slick, but is he powerful enough to go with this crowd?  Valencia seems to have the more natural frame for the weight gain.

[Coach_J 2,053]

1 hour ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Remember that was day before weigh-ins. He’ll have to make scratch both days and actually have to wrestle both days, I’ll take Taylor in this scenario. 

Don't they get 2 kilos on second day now?

[pamela 1,334]

9 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Don't they get 2 kilos on second day now?

No weight allowance on either day now for Worlds or UWW ranking tournaments. Wrestlers get 2kg on day 2 at the World Cup and non-ranking events.

[Coach_J 2,053]

8 minutes ago, pamela said:

No weight allowance on either day now for Worlds or UWW ranking tournaments. Wrestlers get 2kg on day 2 at the World Cup and non-ranking events.

Got ya, thanks.

[GoNotQuietly 896]

11 hours ago, scramble said:

Side note on Cox:. The tides have changed in terms of the confidence people have in him, it also seems like forever ago, and a forgotten thought, that when he came on  the scene he also had to qualify the weight for 2016 in his first match out at the senior level.  We had yet to qualify that weight.

Looking at the poll so far, this seems to be the case.  "I really enjoyed the Cox is underrated era", but it appears to final be over and everyone is giving the man his well earned dues.

[Blue Dragons 47]

Ringer and Dake are the only two capable of moving up and contending.  Forget Hall and Valencia...not strong enough. 

[Ogalthorpe Haywood 322]

5 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Don't they get 2 kilos on second day now?

Nope scratch weight both days now. Which is the real hurdle for Cox 

[Blue Dragons 47]

9 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Spoken like a Summa Cum Laude grad of THE Johns Hopkins University!  Now get back in your cave (and send me money on GoFundMe, engineers have it rough nowadays...).  

Did Downey pin your son in junior league or high school or college, or you just can't get off his jock?  BTW, I'm pretty sure that he graduated from Iowa State, not THE Johns Hopkins University.  He's smart, but not that smart. 

[Lurker 1,397]

20 hours ago, Blue Dragons said:

Actually, nearly everyone who has met and gotten to know Downey likes him.  Therefore, I would say that most people do like him.  It's just the ones on this forum, nearly all of whom have never met him, that love to bash the guy.  Yeah, in MDogg's mind, a guy winning a bronze medal in the world championships and earning a bye to the O Trials is a flawed system....too much. 

That’s fair and I should have said differently. I don’t like all the unnecessary talk, but never met him so you make a point. 

[Coach_J 2,053]

17 minutes ago, Blue Dragons said:

Did Downey pin your son in junior league or high school or college, or you just can't get off his jock?  BTW, I'm pretty sure that he graduated from Iowa State, not THE Johns Hopkins University.  He's smart, but not that smart. 

D-bag, an obvious reference to his d-bag daddy.  But thanks for playing.

[MDogg 273]

21 hours ago, Lurker said:

I think if the cut doesn’t effect Cox it’s him. He has gone a completely different level since he won an Olympic medal. And since he beat Taylor. 

As far as Downey winning a medal and getting the bye, how does THAT make it such a flawed system? Because a guy most people don’t like won a medal in the most difficult of 3 world championships in the Olympic cycle???  I don’t like the guy either but come on. 

How is it flawed? It’s pretty simple: because we’d be sending Pat Downey to the Olympics over David Taylor, Cox, and Ringer (2 out of the 3) only because he finished top 4 this year. Unless you think Pat Downey is better than them it’s a flawed system because it results in USA sending someone who 99% of wrestling fans agree isn’t our best guy at the weight.

Under this system if Pat Downey gets bronze this year and only wrestles 2 matches in 2020 (OTT finals) and gets teched both times in under 30 seconds he would still be our first alternate over 2 of the following 3: Cox, Taylor or Ringer. That’s a flawed system. 

I personally think only returning gold should sit in the trials tournament final. USA has made massive strides and our current system rewards a top 3 or top 4 finish too much. 

I actually don’t dislike Downey, at least not nearly to the extent as most others on here. I just don’t think he’s anywhere close to being on the same level as Cox, Taylor and Ringer...and him somehow pulling off a bronze this year wouldn’t change that. 

[MDogg 273]

20 hours ago, Blue Dragons said:

Actually, nearly everyone who has met and gotten to know Downey likes him.  Therefore, I would say that most people do like him.  It's just the ones on this forum, nearly all of whom have never met him, that love to bash the guy.  Yeah, in MDogg's mind, a guy winning a bronze medal in the world championships and earning a bye to the O Trials is a flawed system....too much. 

See my reply to Lurker. It is a flawed system. The mini-tournament for the right to wrestle Downey in a 2/3 could feature 2 returning gold medalists and David Taylor. Let’s say Taylor beats Cox and Ringer in close matches and then techs Downey twice in the finals. You think it’s a good system that results in Downey being our first alternate instead of Cox or Ringer because he finished top 4 this year? Does sending Pat Downey over Cox in that scenario help or hurt USA in the team race? If it hurts then by definition it is a flawed system.

 

[AZ_wrestling 106]

39 minutes ago, MDogg said:

How is it flawed? It’s pretty simple: because we’d be sending Pat Downey to the Olympics over David Taylor, Cox, and Ringer (2 out of the 3) only because he finished top 4 this year. Unless you think Pat Downey is better than them it’s a flawed system because it results in USA sending someone who 99% of wrestling fans agree isn’t our best guy at the weight.

Under this system if Pat Downey gets bronze this year and only wrestles 2 matches in 2020 (OTT finals) and gets teched both times in under 30 seconds he would still be our first alternate over 2 of the following 3: Cox, Taylor or Ringer. That’s a flawed system. 

I personally think only returning gold should sit in the trials tournament final. USA has made massive strides and our current system rewards a top 3 or top 4 finish too much. 

I actually don’t dislike Downey, at least not nearly to the extent as most others on here. I just don’t think he’s anywhere close to being on the same level as Cox, Taylor and Ringer...and him somehow pulling off a bronze this year wouldn’t change that. 

Pretty much this. The idea that if Downey is good enough to medal, he’s good enough to earn is a bye is the very flaw we’re describing in the system. The goal is to put the best wrestlers from USA into the Olympics. Downey taking 4th at Worlds should not automatically make him the 2020 Olympic alternate. It would put us one injury away from an 86kg rep that isn’t even top 3 in the country. 

[spladle08 740]

Lol cheer for Downey.
There are minimum 8 guys at this weight I cant even see him competing with, but if he does and snags a Bronze thats enough proof for me that he "belongs"
Ill be cheering for him..... believing.... maybe not. Cheering.... til im red in the face

[KCMO2 619]

11 hours ago, spladle08 said:

11 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

I’ve been pretty clear on my point from the beginning, the new rules will be a detriment to Cox if he decides to cut. Not much into reading huh? There’s a much higher chance Cox looks like Green at 86 than looking like himself at 97

Yeah I don't need to read that argument it was my stance the previous 2 years (he would def need to go up, the cut is too severe) the more I've thought about it and become reasonable, I've shiifted stances. Crazy us posters know his body better than him ?

Ogalthorpe apparently does.

[boconnell 1,422]

15 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

I’ve been pretty clear on my point from the beginning, the new rules will be a detriment to Cox if he decides to cut. Not much into reading huh? There’s a much higher chance Cox looks like Green at 86 than looking like himself at 97

I didn't realize you had been clear from the beginning.  Cox shouldn't bother trying if that's the case.

[boconnell 1,422]

I'm okay with massive advantages for medalists.  It keeps them wrestling and winning medals longer and they only maintain the advantage until they stop winning medals.  

But I agree that you should have to beat someone to make the team.  Meaning if you bye into 2nd place and 1st place gets hurt you should have to wrestle the 3rd place guy for the spot.  There is no way you should be able to make the team without a win in the current year.  

[MDogg 273]

50 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I'm okay with massive advantages for medalists.  It keeps them wrestling and winning medals longer and they only maintain the advantage until they stop winning medals.  

But I agree that you should have to beat someone to make the team.  Meaning if you bye into 2nd place and 1st place gets hurt you should have to wrestle the 3rd place guy for the spot.  There is no way you should be able to make the team without a win in the current year.  

I don’t think a bronze medal should get you the same advantage and treatment as a gold medal. Especially in this double bronze era. USA wrestling has made HUGE strides over the past 10+ years and I think we need to stop rewarding a top 3 or top 4 finisher the same way we reward an actual champ. Does anyone really think it’s in USA Wrestling’s best interest to pretend Joe Colon had the same level of performance at the 2018 World’s as Dake, Cox, Taylor and Snyder and thus needs to be treated/protected in the same manner? He didn’t and he got the exact same treatment and protection. 

Totally agree on the first point. System is completely flawed if someone who hasn’t won a single match in the prior 9 months is our Olympic rep after one person gets injured. Let them settle it on the mat. Olympics are once every 4 years and optimizing our team is worth the hassle of having an extra wrestle-off if our OTT winner gets injured and can’t go.

Edited July 26, 2019 by MDogg

[Lurker 1,397]

13 hours ago, MDogg said:

How is it flawed? It’s pretty simple: because we’d be sending Pat Downey to the Olympics over David Taylor, Cox, and Ringer (2 out of the 3) only because he finished top 4 this year. Unless you think Pat Downey is better than them it’s a flawed system because it results in USA sending someone who 99% of wrestling fans agree isn’t our best guy at the weight.

Under this system if Pat Downey gets bronze this year and only wrestles 2 matches in 2020 (OTT finals) and gets teched both times in under 30 seconds he would still be our first alternate over 2 of the following 3: Cox, Taylor or Ringer. That’s a flawed system. 

I personally think only returning gold should sit in the trials tournament final. USA has made massive strides and our current system rewards a top 3 or top 4 finish too much. 

I actually don’t dislike Downey, at least not nearly to the extent as most others on here. I just don’t think he’s anywhere close to being on the same level as Cox, Taylor and Ringer...and him somehow pulling off a bronze this year wouldn’t change that. 

And that too is fair. It’s just a difference in opinion and what a person would rather see. I believe in you get what you earn. And if the hypothetical you speak to plays out that way, it would be a flaw in your eyes because maybe our alternate isn’t the best alternate available, in my eyes it wouldn’t be flawed because...you get what you earn. The question I would pose to you is, Ringer and Cox know the process, know the rules, and had the opportunity to make the weight class move this year in order to set up that bye in 2020 for themselves correct? They chose not to. Not saying I disagree with that choice just saying they made that choice knowing it meant they had no possible way to get that bye in 2020. You get what you earn. 

I don’t think either one of us are right our wrong, just opinions coming from different perspective of what we would rather see. 

[nom 874]

@MDogg - huh, I had not thought about the first alternate situation.  You make a good point.  Seems to me that a true second should be determined.

Also, for Olympic years, due to the combining of weights, I am leaning toward the idea that only gold medalists get the bye at the weight. As an example, a bronze medal winner at 57kg should not sit in final when a gold medal winner from 61kg is in the weight for OTT.  

 

 

[Plasmodium 1,603]

For qualification purposes, what does PD3 need to get done?  5th?

[scramble 153]

1 hour ago, nom said:

@MDogg - huh, I had not thought about the first alternate situation.  You make a good point.  Seems to me that a true second should be determined.

Also, for Olympic years, due to the combining of weights, I am leaning toward the idea that only gold medalists get the bye at the weight. As an example, a bronze medal winner at 57kg should not sit in final when a gold medal winner from 61kg is in the weight for OTT.  

 

 

That isnt a bad idea.  I would  maybe lean to finalist though.  Gold/Silver.  

[nhs67 1,124]

15 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

For qualification purposes, what does PD3 need to get done?  5th?

Yes. Top 6 placement(there are two 5ths so 5th would be the answer).

I believe he'll need to win one, if not two, matchrs then at a minimum. At the World Championships... when he went 0-2 at Yasar Dogu.

I will have my beer hat on(the one with the straws, etc) however it isn't looking all that promising.

USA USA USA USA USA

[Blue Dragons 47]

15 hours ago, Coach_J said:

D-bag, an obvious reference to his d-bag daddy.  But thanks for playing.

I find it peculiar that you consider it to be 'playing' by constantly posting derogatory remarks about one of our world team members and/or his father.  Exactly what makes you call his father a d-bag? Is it because of him defending his son on this forum in the past? Is it because of him doing it a seemingly cocky manner?  Put yourself in the father's shoes.  How would YOU react if it was your son?  You call yourself a coach, I suggest that you behave like one.