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2020 86Kgs rep  

106 members have voted

  1. 1. Assuming this field, who wins the spot next year?

    • David Taylor
      29
    • J'den Cox
      61
    • Alex Dieringer
      5
    • Bo Nickal
      4
    • Zahid Valencia
      0
    • Pat Downey
      6
    • Other
      1


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What would cause more of a xxxx-storm?

 

Scenario A:

-Arbitration on Monday scoffs at the Cornell lawyers. 

-Zain goes. Wrestles well and qualifies the weight but gets hurt in the semis giving the eventual Gold medalist his toughest mach(India or Japan). Loses his bronze on one leg.

-in the OTT there is nobody sitting un the finals.

-Pico beats Zain in one semi. Metcalf beats Yianni in the other semi. Convincingly for both of them.

-Winner of Pico-Zain represents USA for 2020.

 

Scenario B:

-Downey gets the draw of a lifetime making it to the semis without wrestling a match but loses FAST.

-His bronze medal match is a default win due to his opponent being too hurt to wrestle after his consi-semis match.

-Downey has bye to OTT finals without winning an international match in 2019.

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14 hours ago, MDogg said:

How is it flawed? It’s pretty simple: because we’d be sending Pat Downey to the Olympics over David Taylor, Cox, and Ringer (2 out of the 3) only because he finished top 4 this year. Unless you think Pat Downey is better than them it’s a flawed system because it results in USA sending someone who 99% of wrestling fans agree isn’t our best guy at the weight.

Under this system if Pat Downey gets bronze this year and only wrestles 2 matches in 2020 (OTT finals) and gets teched both times in under 30 seconds he would still be our first alternate over 2 of the following 3: Cox, Taylor or Ringer. That’s a flawed system. 

I personally think only returning gold should sit in the trials tournament final. USA has made massive strides and our current system rewards a top 3 or top 4 finish too much. 

I actually don’t dislike Downey, at least not nearly to the extent as most others on here. I just don’t think he’s anywhere close to being on the same level as Cox, Taylor and Ringer...and him somehow pulling off a bronze this year wouldn’t change that. 

 Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.  But if Downey sits in the finals and then beats either of the three you've mentioned, would you STILL say the system is flawed.  Incidentally, do you know anything about how the three of them do against one another in the OTC room? Let's just say your overwhelming confidence in two out of three of them is ill-placed.  Downey is nowhere near the same wrestler he was two years ago when Taylor twice teched him, and the same will apply a year from now.  Thank God for wrestling, where opinions come to die on the mat.  

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14 hours ago, MDogg said:

See my reply to Lurker. It is a flawed system. The mini-tournament for the right to wrestle Downey in a 2/3 could feature 2 returning gold medalists and David Taylor. Let’s say Taylor beats Cox and Ringer in close matches and then techs Downey twice in the finals. You think it’s a good system that results in Downey being our first alternate instead of Cox or Ringer because he finished top 4 this year? Does sending Pat Downey over Cox in that scenario help or hurt USA in the team race? If it hurts then by definition it is a flawed system.

 

Simple solution...if Downey would get teched twice by Taylor, have a wrestle-off for a true second. Easy.

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14 hours ago, AZ_wrestling said:

Pretty much this. The idea that if Downey is good enough to medal, he’s good enough to earn is a bye is the very flaw we’re describing in the system. The goal is to put the best wrestlers from USA into the Olympics. Downey taking 4th at Worlds should not automatically make him the 2020 Olympic alternate. It would put us one injury away from an 86kg rep that isn’t even top 3 in the country. 

First,  placing 4th at Worlds would do nothing for Downey. Second, Downey is currently the top 2 in the country at 86kg.  Results don't lie. 

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7 hours ago, MDogg said:

I don’t think a bronze medal should get you the same advantage and treatment as a gold medal. Especially in this double bronze era. USA wrestling has made HUGE strides over the past 10+ years and I think we need to stop rewarding a top 3 or top 4 finisher the same way we reward an actual champ. Does anyone really think it’s in USA Wrestling’s best interest to pretend Joe Colon had the same level of performance at the 2018 World’s as Dake, Cox, Taylor and Snyder and thus needs to be treated/protected in the same manner? He didn’t and he got the exact same treatment and protection. 

Totally agree on the first point. System is completely flawed if someone who hasn’t won a single match in the prior 9 months is our Olympic rep after one person gets injured. Let them settle it on the mat. Olympics are once every 4 years and optimizing our team is worth the hassle of having an extra wrestle-off if our OTT winner gets injured and can’t go.

The Bronze doesn't get rewarded because it's equal to the gold.  It gets rewarded because it's greater then the rest of the weight class.  Every wrestler had a chance to earn bronze at 61 and only Colon did.  That makes him the most qualified 61 KG wrestler in the country right now and that earns him an advantage.  The advantage is about him versus the rest of 61, not him vs a gold in another weight.  I'm fine if they take it away, but I'm also fine with them keeping it.

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What would cause more of a xxxx-storm?
 
Scenario A:
-Arbitration on Monday scoffs at the Cornell lawyers. 
-Zain goes. Wrestles well and qualifies the weight but gets hurt in the semis giving the eventual Gold medalist his toughest mach(India or Japan). Loses his bronze on one leg.
-in the OTT there is nobody sitting un the finals.
-Pico beats Zain in one semi. Metcalf beats Yianni in the other semi. Convincingly for both of them.
-Winner of Pico-Zain represents USA for 2020.
 
Scenario B:
-Downey gets the draw of a lifetime making it to the semis without wrestling a match but loses FAST.
-His bronze medal match is a default win due to his opponent being too hurt to wrestle after his consi-semis match.
-Downey has bye to OTT finals without winning an international match in 2019.



Well, the first scenario sounds like one of the most entertaining OTTs ever, so I don’t know who could complain about that.

The second scenario would probably cause a march on USAW headquarters because people’s over the top hatred of Downey and maybe his likely over the top gloating about a medal lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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2 hours ago, Blue Dragons said:

First,  placing 4th at Worlds would do nothing for Downey. Second, Downey is currently the top 2 in the country at 86kg.  Results don't lie. 

Does “tied for third” make you feel better? Should I phrase it that way?

And to your second point, that’s the very thing we’re arguing for — results for justifying his would-be placement. He’s 2nd now, with 10 weight classes. If he’s second best at 86kg next year, then let him show it. Crazy idea I know...

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2 hours ago, Blue Dragons said:

 Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.  But if Downey sits in the finals and then beats either of the three you've mentioned, would you STILL say the system is flawed.  Incidentally, do you know anything about how the three of them do against one another in the OTC room? Let's just say your overwhelming confidence in two out of three of them is ill-placed.  Downey is nowhere near the same wrestler he was two years ago when Taylor twice teched him, and the same will apply a year from now.  Thank God for wrestling, where opinions come to die on the mat.  

That’s the difference between your route and ours. Our ill-placed confidence would result in actual matches for determining who is best (or 2nd). If we’re wrong, let Downey prove it. Ironically that’s what we want... opinions to die on the mat. It seems you don’t. 

Edited by AZ_wrestling

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Cox=63.75% and Taylor=21.25%

This has been independently confirmed as the first time David Taylor did not win an internet match. I highly suspect shenanigans are afoot and would immediately open an investigation. Who knows how far this conspiracy reaches but I would start with Kyle Dake, who is 0-1,349 in lifetime fantasy matches against Taylor, as a potential mastermind behind this nefarious plot and find out just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

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28 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Cox=63.75% and Taylor=21.25%

This has been independently confirmed as the first time David Taylor did not win an internet match. I highly suspect shenanigans are afoot and would immediately open an investigation. Who knows how far this conspiracy reaches but I would start with Kyle Dake, who is 0-1,349 in lifetime fantasy matches against Taylor, as a potential mastermind behind this nefarious plot and find out just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

The only thing missing is the Cornell lawyers. 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

The only thing missing is the Cornell lawyers. 

This is the kind of thinking I'm talking about. There are layers to this conspiracy and we need to keep peeling them back.

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3 hours ago, Blue Dragons said:

I find it peculiar that you consider it to be 'playing' by constantly posting derogatory remarks about one of our world team members and/or his father.  Exactly what makes you call his father a d-bag? Is it because of him defending his son on this forum in the past? Is it because of him doing it a seemingly cocky manner?  Put yourself in the father's shoes.  How would YOU react if it was your son?  You call yourself a coach, I suggest that you behave like one. 

Okay, Mr. Righteous, I'll take it from the top.  You brought up my son in your original diatribe; my son is an Airborne Ranger combat vet of Iraq now serving in another not so nice part of the world--taking any shot at him or even bringing him up is, beyond ignorant, cowardly.  He has no idea who PDII or PDIII are and could give a f$ck. As for PDII, anyone on this forum for any length of time witnessed his helicopter parent daddy cheerleading/excuse making for everything little junior ever screwed up--he's opened himself up to the responses he gets, so deal with it.  You dish it out, you should be able to take it.  As for PDIII, I'm not a fan but I don't root against him, just indifferent and immune to the so-far unearned hype. If he wins a world medal, good for him, but the incessant "me against the world" is tiresome, particularly when most of his problems he's brought on himself, not "the haters" or anyone else daddy says pooped in junior's pants (ex-girlfriends, ex-coaches, yada yada).  Do something, win some bouts at the Dogu, then talk all you want.  And yes, I am a coach and father, and one rule is talk after you've proven something.  If PDII medals (hell, takes 5th, wins some bouts against top opponents) I'll congratulate him and listen to all the talk he wants to give because he'll have earned it.

Edited by Coach_J

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4 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Okay, Mr. Righteous, I'll take it from the top.  You brought up my son in your original diatribe; my son is an Airborne Ranger combat vet of Iraq now serving in another not so nice part of the world--taking any shot at him or even bringing him up is, beyond ignorant, cowardly.  He has no idea who PDII is and could give a f$ck. 

 

I know your son would know this, but a great many Americans are thankful for his service. This American is thankful. He and his fellow servicemen provide the freedom we live under, and hopefully we all can recognize that. Looks to me like you raised a great son, Coach. 

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26 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

I know your son would know this, but a great many Americans are thankful for his service. This American is thankful. He and his fellow servicemen provide the freedom we live under, and hopefully we all can recognize that. Looks to me like you raised a great son, Coach. 

Appreciate it, man.  He's a quiet, humble individual, expects nothing in return for his service, but I'll pass along your kind words when I am able to communicate with him again.  Again, thank you on his behalf.

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1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

Cox=63.75% and Taylor=21.25%

This has been independently confirmed as the first time David Taylor did not win an internet match. I highly suspect shenanigans are afoot and would immediately open an investigation. Who knows how far this conspiracy reaches but I would start with Kyle Dake, who is 0-1,349 in lifetime fantasy matches against Taylor, as a potential mastermind behind this nefarious plot and find out just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I think DT just threw a virtual brick at the screen.

 

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5 hours ago, Blue Dragons said:

But if Downey sits in the finals and then beats either of the three you've mentioned, would you STILL say the system is flawed.

No, I would not say that the system failed in this particular case but I would still think returning bronze medalists shouldn’t sit in the finals.

 

5 hours ago, Blue Dragons said:

 Downey is nowhere near the same wrestler he was two years ago when Taylor twice teched him, and the same will apply a year from now.  Thank God for wrestling, where opinions come to die on the mat.  

The last 2 times we’ve seen Downey wrestle was at Dogu and the WTT tournament. At the WTT tournament he needed a miracle comeback against Myles Martin, and Martin looked like the clearly better wrestler 95% of the match. He then squeaked by Heflin in the finals. Then he went 0-2 at Dogu and was far and away the weakest American 2019 world team member at that tournament. To me he looks improved compared to 2 years ago when he got teched by Taylor but it’s by no means a drastic improvement. He’s just nowhere near the level of Cox, Taylor or Ringer.

Edited by MDogg

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50 minutes ago, lu_alum said:


TBar is only upset because no one who graduates from PSU is smart enough to become a lawyer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PSU has its own law school. Talk about lack of smarts ... on your part, lu alum.

Edited by TBar1977

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4 hours ago, AZ_wrestling said:

That’s the difference between your route and ours. Our ill-placed confidence would result in actual matches for determining who is best (or 2nd). If we’re wrong, let Downey prove it. Ironically that’s what we want... opinions to die on the mat. It seems you don’t. 

On the contrary, I believe in fielding the very best team.  If wrestle-offs don't currently exist, now is the time to amend the rules...which do matter to me. Some posters on here think guys should be allowed to change weights midway thru the qualification process, which is utterly ridiculous.  

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:

No, I would not say that the system failed in this particular case but I would still think returning bronze medalists shouldn’t sit in the finals.

 

The last 2 times we’ve seen Downey wrestle was at Dogu and the WTT tournament. At the WTT tournament he needed a miracle comeback against Myles Martin, and Martin looked like the clearly better wrestler 95% of the match. He then squeaked by Heflin in the finals. Then he went 0-2 at Dogu and was far and away the weakest American 2019 world team member at that tournament. To me he looks improved compared to 2 years ago when he got teched by Taylor but it’s by no means a drastic improvement. He’s just nowhere near the level of Cox, Taylor or Ringer.

I don't know, Green didn't look to good. Both of Downey's matches were very close...tough call in the first match...could have changed the outcome. As far a miracle comeback, I always thought a win was a win. Furthermore, he beat Heflin 3x...don't see that as squeaking by. 

Edited by Blue Dragons

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3 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Okay, Mr. Righteous, I'll take it from the top.  You brought up my son in your original diatribe; my son is an Airborne Ranger combat vet of Iraq now serving in another not so nice part of the world--taking any shot at him or even bringing him up is, beyond ignorant, cowardly.  He has no idea who PDII or PDIII are and could give a f$ck. As for PDII, anyone on this forum for any length of time witnessed his helicopter parent daddy cheerleading/excuse making for everything little junior ever screwed up--he's opened himself up to the responses he gets, so deal with it.  You dish it out, you should be able to take it.  As for PDIII, I'm not a fan but I don't root against him, just indifferent and immune to the so-far unearned hype. If he wins a world medal, good for him, but the incessant "me against the world" is tiresome, particularly when most of his problems he's brought on himself, not "the haters" or anyone else daddy says pooped in junior's pants (ex-girlfriends, ex-coaches, yada yada).  Do something, win some bouts at the Dogu, then talk all you want.  And yes, I am a coach and father, and one rule is talk after you've proven something.  If PDII medals (hell, takes 5th, wins some bouts against top opponents) I'll congratulate him and listen to all the talk he wants to give because he'll have earned it.

I think someone needs a diaper change, Mr. Hypocritical. So, it's ok for you to constantly take shots at Downey (who is someone's son), but as soon as you're asked to put yourself in PDII's shoes, you run to your helicopter to defend your Airborne Ranger (which is highly commendable, btw).  I think you might want to practice what you preach, coach. 

Edited by Blue Dragons

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49 minutes ago, Blue Dragons said:

I don't know, Green didn't look to good. Both of Downey's matches were very close...tough call in the first match...could have changed the outcome. As far a miracle comeback, I always thought a win was a win. Furthermore, he beat Heflin 3x...don't see that as squeaking by. 

Agreed that Green also looked bad. However,  Downey looking on par or perhaps a smidgeon better than a guy who looked bad doesn’t really help your argument that he’s not the same guy he was 2 years ago when it was obvious he wasn’t remotely close to being on Taylor’s level.

Also you say “I always thought a win was a win” the sentence after you qualify Downey’s loss as involving a questionable call. If a win’s a win then a loss is a loss...and Downey went 0-2 the last time we saw him wrestle. 

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1 hour ago, Blue Dragons said:

I think someone needs a diaper change, Mr. Hypocritical. So, it's ok for you to constantly take shots at Downey (who is someone's son), but as soon as you're asked to put yourself in PDII's shoes, you run to your helicopter to defend your Airborne Ranger (which is highly commendable, btw).  I think you might want to practice what you preach, coach. 

This is like trying to play chess with a gerbil. I did not defend my son and have no no need to as your juvenile speculation about him losing a wrestling match to PDIII was straight out of 5th grade; I pointed out what an a-hole you are to even bring him up in the first place in your feeble attempt to defend your pal.  My son, quite literally, fights his own battles. Your d!ck comments about him reflect on you alone. Maybe you could try letting PDII and III do the same instead of whining how mean everyone is (diaper at the ready for you, bro, and a cry towel too).  Basically, you are not doing PDIII any public relations favors by whimpering over the bruising of your paper thin skin.

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