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Perry

Fix should have been on the backside

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Understand something about neutral and defensive falls. Refs generally intentionally look the other way for a short time since the pinnee probably put himself there and you want him held by the other guy. I would say here that Fix did put himself in danger. The other guy did do the reach back and held him for a while.

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Interesting take.  He was flat for a second, but he actively put himself there in a match he was dominating.  Even when flat, he was in control of the position, but he was flat.  I have wrestled my whole life, coached, still workout.  Its a position I will admit, I am not sure how it should be called.  He is dominating the position and pinned at the same time.  Great post

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The rules on fall criteria do not change, defensive or not. It's the ref's responsibility to call a match according to the rules with complete neutrality.

 

Had he been at an angle to see this I hope it would have been called. It certainly should have. 

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3 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The rules on fall criteria do not change, defensive or not. It's the ref's responsibility to call a match according to the rules with complete neutrality.

 

Had he been at an angle to see this I hope it would have been called. It certainly should have. 

Could you recount your top 3 blown calls? Just tell us the stories of 3 matches that you messed up. 

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26 minutes ago, Zebra said:

The rules on fall criteria do not change, defensive or not. It's the ref's responsibility to call a match according to the rules with complete neutrality.

 

Had he been at an angle to see this I hope it would have been called. It certainly should have. 

I officiate and I don’t call a defensive pin as quick as an offensive, especially if the defensive is doing nothing. Sorry not sorry, but I believe in the aggressor getting a little benefit of the doubt. 

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11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I officiate and I don’t call a defensive pin as quick as an offensive, especially if the defensive is doing nothing. Sorry not sorry, but I believe in the aggressor getting a little benefit of the doubt. 

If you officiate and intentionally do not follow the rules you should rethink that. 

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11 minutes ago, Zebra said:

If you officiate and intentionally do not follow the rules you should rethink that. 

I can certainly tell you I am far from the only official, or coach (I was 20+ year coach before switching) who feels the same. And I don’t feel I need to rethink it. I’m very comfortable in that mindset. 

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51 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I can certainly tell you I am far from the only official, or coach (I was 20+ year coach before switching) who feels the same. And I don’t feel I need to rethink it. I’m very comfortable in that mindset. 

Then you are OK with an official completely disregarding their second most important responsibility, being a neutral arbiter of the rules? What other rules do you ignore in favor of the aggressor? If you are just going to make things up then why have a rule book in the first place? I'm sorry but doing that is just wrong, and if you can't understand that we just live in completely different worlds. 

No ref is perfect, I certainly wasn't, but I was 100% fair in my application of the rules.    

 

Edited by Zebra

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54 minutes ago, Mphillips said:

I don't doubt that, you're an official.  I just haven't.  I would suspect you've seen lots of other officials do things that I haven't seen.  

I was an official, high school and below. I stopped in at the end of 2012. I've seen lots of stuff, good and bad.  

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1 hour ago, jackwebster said:

Could you recount your top 3 blown calls? Just tell us the stories of 3 matches that you messed up. 

It would be a complete waste of time. But I do have one match I still think about to this day. I made a mistake in my routine which led to "bad time" and possibly cost a kid a tournament win.  

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On 8/9/2019 at 9:50 AM, Perry said:

Most recently from Oklahoma state kids it seems (dean heil)

Not that recently, but Johny Hendricks too (pinned, but not defensive).  All were coached by Smith though, who might have sh!t himself in the center of the mat if the pins were called, and I'm sure the refs were probably cognizant of that.

Edited by KCMO2

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18 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Then you are OK with an official completely disregarding their second most important responsibility, being a neutral arbiter of the rules? What other rules do you ignore in favor of the aggressor? If you are just going to make things up then why have a rule book in the first place? I'm sorry but doing that is just wrong, and if you can't understand that we just live in completely different worlds. 

No ref is perfect, I certainly wasn't, but I was 100% fair in my application of the rules.    

 

1) No

2) that’s really the only one. 

3) not making things up. Mindset comes from other officials I’ve talked to over the years who worked much longer than me and at much higher levels. One one them being our state evaluator and one of the very best officials in the country (at levels higher than high school) 

I guess you are under the impression that good officials only do everything black and white of the rulebook and pay not attention to the spirit of the rule.  Because holding gets called on every single play in the NFL, right?

Edited by Lurker

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Well, the rules are pretty specific in both HS and college saying the count won't start until after the referee is in position to observe that the fall is imminent. If they aren't in position...

I don't see where it says that the ref has to get into position.

There was an official out this way a few years back that would actually brag about calling def/neutral falls. I believe he called 2 one NCAAs. Haven't seen him much since.

One was pretty much a rolling fall.

Having various technical calls arise and calling them is one thing but when you tend to look for them at the cost of general judgment is another. Like running around to find locked hands and missing escapes, reversals or near falls is a problem. I think most wrestling people would rather have you miss a couple overly technical calls occasionally but get the major control calls. There aren't a lot of refs that could possibly get all of both.

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23 minutes ago, Lurker said:

1) No

2) that’s really the only one. 

3) not making things up. Mindset comes from other officials I’ve talked to over the years who worked much longer than me and at much higher levels. One one them being our state evaluator and one of the very best officials in the country (at levels higher than high school) 

I guess you are under the impression that good officials only do everything black and white of the rulebook and pay not attention to the spirit of the rule.  Because holding gets called on every single play in the NFL, right?

Can you tell me what page the "Spirit of the rules" clause is on? Did they add it since 2012? 

If we follow your NFL example an aggressive team should get a buffer for out of bounds, just because you feel like it is within the "spirit of the rules". Will that be 3 yards today or maybe only 2 yards based upon how you feel that day. How about only on their side of the field. I mean way constrain something written in black and white? 

And yes, good officials do follow the rules without bias, which you have just admitted you do not in some cases. Oh and if there is one case there are others based upon the same mindset. 

 

As I said we clearly come from different worlds. Mine, rigid but fair. Yours, a bit more loosey-goosey. 

And none of this applies to little kids who have no idea what the rules are. Once you are in JR High it's strictly by the book. 

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6 minutes ago, Zebra said:

Can you tell me what page the "Spirit of the rules" clause is on? Did they add it since 2012? 

If we follow your NFL example an aggressive team should get a buffer for out of bounds, just because you feel like it is within the "spirit of the rules". Will that be 3 yards today or maybe only 2 yards based upon how you feel that day. How about only on their side of the field. I mean way constrain something written in black and white? 

And yes, good officials do follow the rules without bias, which you have just admitted you do not in some cases. Oh and if there is one case there are others based upon the same mindset. 

 

As I said we clearly come from different worlds. Mine, rigid but fair. Yours, a bit more loosey-goosey. 

And none of this applies to little kids who have no idea what the rules are. Once you are in JR High it's strictly by the book. 

As I said, maybe you didn’t pay attention, the mindset for me at least only applies to the defensive fall. Not quite as dramatic as you are making it out to be. As far as “only good officials”...well you’re wrong. I just told you I developed the mindset learning from some of the best officials in the country so (do you read before you respond?)...and as far as “bias” that’s not bias.  If it were bias that mindset would only apply to certain individuals/programs.  It does not.  It is across the board  

But...Fair enough. Not everyone is always going to agree. That’s what makes this country so great. 

Edited by Lurker

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30 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Well, the rules are pretty specific in both HS and college saying the count won't start until after the referee is in position to observe that the fall is imminent. If they aren't in position...

I don't see where it says that the ref has to get into position.

There was an official out this way a few years back that would actually brag about calling def/neutral falls. I believe he called 2 one NCAAs. Haven't seen him much since.

One was pretty much a rolling fall.

Having various technical calls arise and calling them is one thing but when you tend to look for them at the cost of general judgment is another. Like running around to find locked hands and missing escapes, reversals or near falls is a problem. I think most wrestling people would rather have you miss a couple overly technical calls occasionally but get the major control calls. There aren't a lot of refs that could possibly get all of both.

I'll take these one at a time. 

There is nothing specific about "position" beyond being in one to see what is going on. You cannot make an call, any call, without seeing what happened. If you are on the wrong side or a bad angle you can't make a call by what you assume to be happening. In this case of this thread, the ref was out of the frame so he may not have been at an angle to see both scapula were flat. 

No official should brag about anything. In fact most people should stop bragging in general. 

A ref should be observant and notice everything when on the mat or not. If they see something they need to take into account they should. If you notice a wrestler who constantly does something illegal you need to look for it. 

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2 hours ago, Zebra said:

The rules on fall criteria do not change, defensive or not. It's the ref's responsibility to call a match according to the rules with complete neutrality.

 

Had he been at an angle to see this I hope it would have been called. It certainly should have. 

So, is it possible for both wrestlers to go to their backs at the exact same moment and be there for the requisite one second? If so, what is it - double loss? You are advocating for a strict application of the rules without any common sense. I would argue that common sense has a place in reffing - no matter what the rules explicitly say.

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2 minutes ago, npope said:

 I would argue that common sense has a place in reffing - no matter what the rules explicitly say.

A sentiment shared by some of the top officials on the planet. 

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