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leshismore

If a U.S. wrestler goes overseas to train [which many have done], HOW LONG is acceptable?

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I wonder what other people's experiences are asking questions to FRL. 

CP is always complaining about non-Americans working out in the US.

Sounds xenophobic at times, but that's his stick.

I have asked this simple question to FRL at least 5 times (if I am using twitter correctly) and it has never been addressed.

The simple question is this:

"If a U.S. wrestler goes overseas to train [which many have done], HOW LONG is acceptable according to CP?"

This is a serious question.  If people do not want non-U.S. wrestlers to train here, what about our wrestlers who train overseas?  Never? One month? Six months? One year? Two years? A decade?

Frankly, I could care less if non-Americans work out here and our guys learn from Russians.  Actually, I think our guys should spend more time overseas as Dave Schultz would do.

Our wrestlers could learn new techniques, understand the culture, try new food, and maybe acquire a new language. 

But really, how long is it acceptable for our guys to train overseas?

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27 minutes ago, leshismore said:

I wonder what other people's experiences are asking questions to FRL. 

CP is always complaining about non-Americans working out in the US.

Sounds xenophobic at times, but that's his stick.

I have asked this simple question to FRL at least 5 times (if I am using twitter correctly) and it has never been addressed.

The simple question is this:

"If a U.S. wrestler goes overseas to train [which many have done], HOW LONG is acceptable according to CP?"

This is a serious question.  If people do not want non-U.S. wrestlers to train here, what about our wrestlers who train overseas?  Never? One month? Six months? One year? Two years? A decade?

Frankly, I could care less if non-Americans work out here and our guys learn from Russians.  Actually, I think our guys should spend more time overseas as Dave Schultz would do.

Our wrestlers could learn new techniques, understand the culture, try new food, and maybe acquire a new language. 

But really, how long is it acceptable for our guys to train overseas?

Good question Hrovat lived in Russia for a year I believe.Many Americans have trained in other countries from time to time.

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38 minutes ago, leshismore said:

I wonder what other people's experiences are asking questions to FRL. 

CP is always complaining about non-Americans working out in the US.

Sounds xenophobic at times, but that's his stick.

I have asked this simple question to FRL at least 5 times (if I am using twitter correctly) and it has never been addressed.

The simple question is this:

"If a U.S. wrestler goes overseas to train [which many have done], HOW LONG is acceptable according to CP?"

This is a serious question.  If people do not want non-U.S. wrestlers to train here, what about our wrestlers who train overseas?  Never? One month? Six months? One year? Two years? A decade?

Frankly, I could care less if non-Americans work out here and our guys learn from Russians.  Actually, I think our guys should spend more time overseas as Dave Schultz would do.

Our wrestlers could learn new techniques, understand the culture, try new food, and maybe acquire a new language. 

But really, how long is it acceptable for our guys to train overseas?

50 years is too long, otherwise whatever you feel is helpful.  ;_;

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1 hour ago, leshismore said:

I don't know about that.  Doesn't sound right to me.  Anyone else know?

He was part of a league there.

I know a few of our women do the same every year.

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Is Pyle's "sHtick" that guys come over here to train, get a couple live goes, drill etc. (Akgul with Snyder); or is it that athletes competing for foreign countries are training in America and being coached by Americans to beat American wrestlers (Chamizo and a number of other guys...)?

I don't listen to their podcast much, so I do not know the answer.... But I definitely see a big difference in the two situations.

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Is Pyle's "sHtick" that guys come over here to train, get a couple live goes, drill etc. (Akgul with Snyder); or is it that athletes competing for foreign countries are training in America and being coached by Americans to beat American wrestlers (Chamizo and a number of other guys...)?
I don't listen to their podcast much, so I do not know the answer.... But I definitely see a big difference in the two situations.
What's his opinion on the NLWC training non USA Wrestling wrestlers like Gomez?

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What's his opinion on the NLWC training non USA Wrestling wrestlers like Gomez?

 

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Listen to the latest FRL. He’s straight-up against guys like Micic, Gomez, and Bekzod (there are others, but he specifically said those names) training in the US, with the objective to beat US wrestlers on the world stage.

 

His take seems to come from a pro-USA viewpoint - why should the USA raise money and fund non-USA wrestlers to potentially beat US wrestlers?

 

 

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9 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Is Pyle's "sHtick" that guys come over here to train, get a couple live goes, drill etc. (Akgul with Snyder); or is it that athletes competing for foreign countries are training in America and being coached by Americans to beat American wrestlers (Chamizo and a number of other guys...)?

I don't listen to their podcast much, so I do not know the answer.... But I definitely see a big difference in the two situations.

That's pretty much it, and Chamizo is his usual example.  That Kendall Cross (I think it was Cross) was in his corner for a JB match exacerbated the issue.

He also has a problem with Americans (e.g. Micic, Amine) wrestling for other countries, especially after competing for US age group teams (and benefiting from the associated coaching).

Personally, and I'm likely an anomaly, I favor the individual over the team, especially at the highest levels, and don't like to stand in the way of any wrestler doing what's best for him- or herself (within the rules, obviously).  If sponsors, etc. are willing to pay Chamizo to train over here, and other wrestlers are willing to train with him, good for him.

I want to see the best wrestlers wrestling their best, especially at the Olympics and WCs, and to that end, I wish Dake had been able to wrestle alongside JB at both the last few years.  That one of the top two or three 79ers won't be at Worlds this year likewise bothers me. 

I feel the same way about Dake gaming the system.  I don't think he owes USA Wrestling anything, and given the impediments he faced for years, I can understand his current selfishness.  I think acknowledging that reality would probably help his cause, but I understand his hesitance.

I'll admit to at least some potential hypocrisy here, as Cael's handling of the Suriano injury, especially at NCAAs, didn't sit well with me, but much of that stems from my own distaste for Christianity's prominence with the sport, and the associated conflicts it exposes.

Sorry for straying so far off-topic.

 

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9 hours ago, cjc007 said:

What's his opinion on the NLWC training non USA Wrestling wrestlers like Gomez?

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Not to speak for Pyles, but I'm pretty sure it bothers him.  I know Chamizo's training situation certainly did, and I don't see much difference between the two situations.

For reasons I'm not sure he's ever explained (and may not even be able to fully articulate), he seems to really embrace the patriotic/nationalistic aspects of international competition.  Micic wrestling for Serbia, for example, bothers him, even if Micic is unlikely to realize his goals and dreams stateside.

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

I can’t imagine getting worked up about a brilliant wrestler like Chamizo training here. 

I get American coaches training foreigners who are battling Americans. But I think we need to look big picture. And the big picture is, as I said in the RTC thread, a program like Columbia having the opportunity to have a Chamizo and Cross to train with. That wouldn’t happen without current culture being what it is, and that is great for American wrestling. It’s more of a benefit to American wrestling than it is a detriment to JB, having Chamizo train here. 

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I get American coaches training foreigners who are battling Americans. But I think we need to look big picture. And the big picture is, as I said in the RTC thread, a program like Columbia having the opportunity to have a Chamizo and Cross to train with. That wouldn’t happen without current culture being what it is, and that is great for American wrestling. It’s more of a benefit to American wrestling than it is a detriment to JB, having Chamizo train here. 
They're professional athletes who can train anywhere they want to train.

End of argument.

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7 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

They're professional athletes who can train anywhere they want to train.

End of argument.

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I’m good with that too. But I don’t think this discussion is about whether they can or can’t, but more it’s impact on American athletes. 

Edited by Lurker

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I’m good with that too. But I don’t think this discussion is about whether they can or can’t, but more it’s impact on American athletes. 

I don't see how it hurts Americans, unless they can't beat the guy training here.

 

If you're world class, you're world class.

 

Foreign track athletes go to college here while representing their home countries in the Olympics. That's been going on for decades.

 

Should those athletes be banned from competing for their homeland? Should let be tossed out of school?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

I don't see how it hurts Americans, unless they can't beat the guy training here.

 

If you're world class, you're world class.

 

Foreign track athletes go to college here while representing their home countries in the Olympics. That's been going on for decades.

 

Should those athletes be banned from competing for their homeland? Should let be tossed out of school?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Those colleges are trying to win.  It is a little different.

A better parallel would be Mo Farah representing England while being coached in Oregon by Alberto Salazar and defeating his training partner, Galen Rupp (USA) to win multiple Olympic golds in mid-distances.

Not sure how that went over in USA track community, but Rupp seemed ok with it.

Wrestling is a little different from distance as far as game planning though.

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54 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Those colleges are trying to win.  It is a little different.

A better parallel would be Mo Farah representing England while being coached in Oregon by Alberto Salazar and defeating his training partner, Galen Rupp (USA) to win multiple Olympic golds in mid-distances.

Not sure how that went over in USA track community, but Rupp seemed ok with it.

Wrestling is a little different from distance as far as game planning though.

Excellent analogy, and I'm not sure distance is running is that different.  There's definitely a lot of strategy and tactics in the distance events, and especially at Worlds and Olympics. 

Sifan Hassan trains with the Nike Oregon Project stateside, and depending upon what she ends up running at Worlds, will likely beat our best at that distance (or even multiple races).  I haven't read about any resulting friction, but wouldn't be surprised to learn it exists.

As a fan, I just want to see the best compete at their best, and whatever happens happens, but I can understand why others feel differently.

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  My guess is that they never responded because it is a poorly formed question.  Why would anyone here care how long our guys went elsewhere to train?  That isn't the concern.  The concern is that "our" resources are being used to train and familiarize wrestlers to beat our guys in international competitions.   If Andy Hrovat had pushed a few Russian studs off of the podium they might have taken a dimmer view of his spending time over there.  Same as Iran, and the same as Ramos vis a vis Iowa.    My guess is Russia wouldn't want Snyderman over there sucking up the federation resources.  

  If Micic, Gomez, etc. were going to compete for the US and use their secondary countries as a fall back I see that as being reasonable.  Chamizo is not that circumstance.  

  End of the day you want the opponent to bring their best, but you don't want them to have an advantage scouting your efforts.  

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, spladle said:

As much time as they can afford.  Cross cultural training whether them coming here or one of our athletes going there is always a good idea.  

From an interculturalist perspective, this has to be my favorite Spladle quote ever.  Thank you.

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5 hours ago, whaletail said:

That's pretty much it, and Chamizo is his usual example.  That Kendall Cross (I think it was Cross) was in his corner for a JB match exacerbated the issue.

He also has a problem with Americans (e.g. Micic, Amine) wrestling for other countries, especially after competing for US age group teams (and benefiting from the associated coaching).

Personally, and I'm likely an anomaly, I favor the individual over the team, especially at the highest levels, and don't like to stand in the way of any wrestler doing what's best for him- or herself (within the rules, obviously).  If sponsors, etc. are willing to pay Chamizo to train over here, and other wrestlers are willing to train with him, good for him.

I want to see the best wrestlers wrestling their best, especially at the Olympics and WCs, and to that end, I wish Dake had been able to wrestle alongside JB at both the last few years.  That one of the top two or three 79ers won't be at Worlds this year likewise bothers me. 

I feel the same way about Dake gaming the system.  I don't think he owes USA Wrestling anything, and given the impediments he faced for years, I can understand his current selfishness.  I think acknowledging that reality would probably help his cause, but I understand his hesitance.

I'll admit to at least some potential hypocrisy here, as Cael's handling of the Suriano injury, especially at NCAAs, didn't sit well with me, but much of that stems from my own distaste for Christianity's prominence with the sport, and the associated conflicts it exposes.

Sorry for straying so far off-topic.

 

Whaletail.  An excellent analysis.  Thanks.

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From my perspective (Germany), I appreciate every foreign wrestler willing to train here and help our own athletes to develop their skills. Since the crisis in Syria we got a few Iranian Guys like Asghar Lagari (FS 125kg) and Abdolmohammad Papi (GR 61/66kg) and we only benefitted from them, but also I think prior to international competitions athletes in the same bracket should be separated from each other for the last part of the trainingcamp. For example JB and Chamizo use to train in the same Club, chamizo should be not allowed to train from the moment JB is nominated for worlds. 

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5 hours ago, Katie said:

I can’t imagine getting worked up about a brilliant wrestler like Chamizo training here. 

My point for starting the post exactly.  I find it strange that CP always brings it up... but won't EVER acknowledge when our guys go overseas to learn.  He typically has a lot of good points, but this one is a little too xenophobic and not very well thought out.

Again, I really would like to know what he and those who support this idea that people shouldn't train here/or go through our system... but then ignore when our folks go overseas.

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