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leshismore

If a U.S. wrestler goes overseas to train [which many have done], HOW LONG is acceptable?

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1 minute ago, leshismore said:

My point for starting the post exactly.  I find it strange that CP always brings it up... but won't EVER acknowledge when our guys go overseas to learn.  He typically has a lot of good points, but this one is a little too xenophobic and not very well thought out.

Again, I really would like to know what he and those who support this idea that people shouldn't train here/or go through our system... but then ignore when our folks go overseas.

Well, I want our guys to suck up foreign coaching time and resources.

I don't want competitors to do the same to us, for the most part.

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50 minutes ago, TFBJR said:

  My guess is that they never responded because it is a poorly formed question.  Why would anyone here care how long our guys went elsewhere to train?  That isn't the concern.  The concern is that "our" resources are being used to train and familiarize wrestlers to beat our guys in international competitions.   If Andy Hrovat had pushed a few Russian studs off of the podium they might have taken a dimmer view of his spending time over there.  Same as Iran, and the same as Ramos vis a vis Iowa.    My guess is Russia wouldn't want Snyderman over there sucking up the federation resources.  

  If Micic, Gomez, etc. were going to compete for the US and use their secondary countries as a fall back I see that as being reasonable.  Chamizo is not that circumstance.  

  End of the day you want the opponent to bring their best, but you don't want them to have an advantage scouting your efforts.  

 

 

 

Maybe I have not had enough coffee but let me get this straight. 

You say: Why would anyone here care how long our guys went elsewhere to train?  That isn't the concern. 

Interesting.  So you are saying that if our guys go overseas, learn from "foreigners" and their system... regardless of how long... that is completely OK and should be of no "concern". 

But if Chamizo comes here and trains [oh... and also may help coach and mentor US wrestlers while here]... THAT is a "concern". Got it.

No hypocrisy there. 

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A few thoughts about elite foreign wrestlers training here.

  1. If an elite foreign wrestler isn't breaking any laws, it's nobody's business where he trains.
  2. An elite foreign wrestler is going to scout US rivals no matter where he trains -- whether it's Havana, Vancouver, or Makhachkala.
  3. When an elite foreign wrestler trains here, he improves himself while simultaneously improving American wrestlers' and coaches' understanding of the sport.
  4. When an elite foreign wrestler trains abroad, he improves himself while simultaneously improving foreign wrestlers and coaches.

Personally, I cannot understand the desire to interfere in someone's life when that person causes no injury to anyone.

Edited by Katie

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9 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Well, I want our guys to suck up foreign coaching time and resources.

I don't want competitors to do the same to us, for the most part.

Sounds totally mature and fair.  Got it.

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I am struggling with the question.  Please help me understand.

There is an American wrestler who wants to represent the USA.  He chooses to go overseas to learn from coaches and wrestlers in other countries to compliment what he has learned in the US.   And you are asking if there should be time limit?

Why?

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9 minutes ago, irani said:

I am struggling with the question.  Please help me understand.

There is an American wrestler who wants to represent the USA.  He chooses to go overseas to learn from coaches and wrestlers in other countries to compliment what he has learned in the US.   And you are asking if there should be time limit?

Why?

It's right there in the dictionary - under Virtue Signaling. 

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6 hours ago, leshismore said:

Sounds totally mature and fair.  Got it.

I think it is honesty and lacks virtue signaling.

 

I'm a fan of trying to improve while my opponents do not improve.  You may feel otherwise.  Cool.

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4 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I think it is honesty and lacks virtue signaling.

 

I'm a fan of trying to improve while my opponents do not improve.  You may feel otherwise.  Cool.

So I understand (although disagree with) your sentiment.  That is an argument against having foreign wrestlers train the US.

What is the argument for putting a time limit on how long US wrestlers can train overseas?

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2 minutes ago, irani said:

So I understand (although disagree with) your sentiment.  That is an argument against having foreign wrestlers train the US.

What is the argument for putting a time limit on how long US wrestlers can train overseas?

I think that it is an absurd question put forth by lush... there is no argument he (thinks he) is playing devils advocate.  I have no problem with it.

I also have no issue with foreign individuals coming here as training partners.

 

My issue is when these guys are using RTC resources and being coached and cornered by RTC coaches to  beat Americans.

 

No one really has an issue with Americans training overseas... that was fabricated by lushismore.

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11 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I think it is honesty and lacks virtue signaling.

 

I'm a fan of trying to improve while my opponents do not improve.  You may feel otherwise.  Cool.

Competitors want to be guys at their best. They want the opponent to bring their best and know they beat their best. Competitors want their opponents to improve, they just want to improve themselves to better stay ahead. 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Competitors want to be guys at their best. They want the opponent to bring their best and know they beat their best. Competitors want their opponents to improve, they just want to improve themselves to better stay ahead. 

You're saying JB is not a competitor?

 

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28 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

You're saying JB is not a competitor?

 

Are you saying JB would rather beat his opponents at less than their best, instead of at their best?  I doubt that to be true. 

Edited by Lurker

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39 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Are you saying JB would rather beat his opponents at less than their best, instead of at their best?  I doubt that to be true. 

UMMMMM... he wants to win... has been vocal about Chamizo training at NYC RTC and being coached and cornered by Cross.  Please pay attention , son.

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16 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

UMMMMM... he wants to win... has been vocal about Chamizo training at NYC RTC and being coached and cornered by Cross.  Please pay attention , son.

I am paying attention. I would advise you to do the same. I didn’t quote and respond to anything about how JB feels about Chamizo training at NYRTC with Cross. I quoted and responded to YOU saying you wouldn’t want your opponents to improve. 

I have no problem with JB not being to kind to a fellow American Olympic Champ training his top rival. I understand that fully. But I also believe JB wants to beat Chamizo at his absolute best. And what I responded to was you saying you don’t want your opponents to improve. 

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I think everyone on our freestyle team could benefit from spending a few months a year in Dagestan. Think of how many world, Olympic, Asian, and European champions are in one wrestling room. I saw a documentary and they said just at one wrestling practice at a gym there were 7. Imagine how good we would be working with all of those guys.

Back in high school I know this kid that was not state championship material. He just didn’t have it. No way this kid was going to ever win state. His parents flew him out to Dagestan every summer and he becomes a 3x champion. By the time he was a junior he was teching or pinning everyone.

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19 hours ago, irani said:

I am struggling with the question.  Please help me understand.

There is an American wrestler who wants to represent the USA.  He chooses to go overseas to learn from coaches and wrestlers in other countries to compliment what he has learned in the US.   And you are asking if there should be time limit?

Why?

Because the FRL folks bring it up all the time... except reversed.

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3 hours ago, leshismore said:

Because the FRL folks bring it up all the time... except reversed.

Understood.  Well, there are two points of views.  The points of view of the country whose wrestler is travelling overseas to learn, and then the host country that is doing the teaching.

I personally am supportive of athletes doing whatever they can do improve themselves.

I can understand, but disagree with, host countries objecting to foreign wrestlers improving themselves and then beating the athletes from the host country.

I cannot imagine why the country whose athletes travels overseas would object in any shape or form or want to put a limit on it.

To be fair, this is kind of attitude is not limited to the USA.  The best Afghani Tae Kwan Do competitors trained with the Iranian Tae Kwan do athletes.  Everything was ok, until the Afghani beat an Iranian in the Olympics semi finals, and everyone started to whine about letting him train with the Iranians.  My view is that the Afghani was better and deserved to win!

Edited by irani

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"I personally am supportive of athletes doing whatever they can do improve themselves."   

"I cannot imagine why the country whose athletes travels overseas would object in any shape or form or want to put a limit on it."

Pure poetry. Could not agree more. Thanks.

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On 8/9/2019 at 11:20 PM, RajaThaiKnee said:

Back in high school I know this kid that was not state championship material. He just didn’t have it. No way this kid was going to ever win state. His parents flew him out to Dagestan every summer and he becomes a 3x champion. By the time he was a junior he was teching or pinning everyone.

Wow, that is a pretty cool.  Idk how much flights to/from would be, but very impressive that his parents were willing to invest in that.  Would have been an interesting cultural experience on top of the wrestling.

If you don't mind me asking, who was this wrestler?

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5 minutes ago, UsedToBe103 said:

Wow, that is a pretty cool.  Idk how much flights to/from would be, but very impressive that his parents were willing to invest in that.  Would have been an interesting cultural experience on top of the wrestling.

If you don't mind me asking, who was this wrestler?

I'm curious about this too because for the last 15 or so years Dagestan and Chechnya and some of the other republics in that area have been in some state of armed conflict with one another or all out war against Russia.  I know for a long period it was considered extremely unsafe to go there for any foreigners and I'm almost positive at one point anyone with a US passport was explicitly not allowed to travel there.  As far as getting there, I don't know about now, but it used to be pretty tough to do because you would need special permission from the Russian government, and if you tried to go on your own you would get stopped at any of the dozen or so checkpoints on the way there and possibly executed.  Things have calmed down over the last couple years, but that whole area was a massive warzone for a while, and lots of people got disappeared, including relief aid workers.  

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