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Anything from arbitration?

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32 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Here is a take I have never seen posted. What if NLWC coaches said between each other something like:

"that 2-2 score is not allowable, they will have to convene or review to fix that"

"You are right, the rules are going to require them to fix this, even without a challenge"

"You're right. We don't even need to throw the brick here"

"But the Chair already made an incorrect score, what if they don't huddle?????"

"You're right. Throw the brick!!!"

And the brick ends up being thrown after that conversation with 2 seconds remaining. 

What if? 

Edited by Lurker

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40 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Do we know the arbiter is stuck on a portion of the rules? Is that why there’s a delay?

Perhaps they are stuck on whether to award Yianni the second match win outright, or to make them re-wrestle the second match.

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

What if? 

You can understand because it has been said many times already, a lot was happening in the final 45 seconds of the match. The Chair made a colossal blunde r in scoring. A scramble of epic proportions was ongoing. None of the Ref, Judge or Chair ever sought to stop that scramble. The ref posts one score, the judge a different score, and the Chair a third different and obviously not allowable score. And its that wrong score that is posted. 

The referee delegate is the ultimate authority over the match, and its their job to settle scoring issues. Given all those facts, what should Tucci have done? Submitted to the Chair? But the Chair is not the ultimate authority, and its the Chair's mistake that led to all this. 

Tucci had the ultimate authority to review that sequence. When the brick came in he was required to review it. Nt reviewing it was no longer an option. Was accepting the brick reasonable? I contend given all these crazy facts that it was just that. Reasonable. Get the score right. This is what Tucci did and his actions were entirely warranted given the problems the Chair handed to him. 

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You’ve covered this. ALOT. And???

Im not really sure what repeating all of that once again has to do with a ten second coaches dialogue and your “what if”

 

Edited by Lurker

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On 8/11/2019 at 10:33 AM, Plasmodium said:

Ah, the billable hour :)

I wish this were over.   It has drug on too long. If it goes in Yianni's favor it will impact training.

 

Summer associates ain't cheap so it's more like a 500 billable hour minimum

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It's basically one month until the start of the World Championships and there is still no decision on the Zain-Yianni situation.  Yes, legal matters take time, but this is not exactly a matter with the complexity of sending a man to the moon.   If the issue is decided in favor of Cornell's lawsuit, then you still have a wrestle-off to schedule.  Either way, there are training camps, preparation, travel time, etc. to factor it.    

Maybe they will make a decision after the World Championships and just send a guy with the initials T.B.D. , T.B.A. or BYE to wrestle 65 KG.

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On 8/12/2019 at 11:26 AM, bnwtwg said:

Summer associates ain't cheap so it's more like a 500 billable hour minimum

Then you have the types who "program themselves to dream about a case" and bill time in bed sleeping - as well as time in court sleeping later.

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On 8/11/2019 at 6:38 PM, Lurker said:

What if? 

That honestly beggars belief.

If it happened, it might very well help their cause, but I'd be shocked if the NLWC coaches were even aware of the rule, let alone willing to hold onto their brick (under the assumption that the chair was going to catch the mistake on his own).  They'd throw the brick as a means to inform the officials, knowing full well it wouldn't cost them a challenge.

Either that, or they'd bring it to someone's attention verbally.

It's pretty clear they had no idea a procedural error had been committed, but even if that conversation did place, I think we'd also have heard about it (via FRL etc.).

Personally, I hate the fact that Yianni has to appeal these procedural issues, when the biggest problem is the unfairness associated with not being able to wrestle the final minute knowing you're actually losing.  Somehow that's been lost in all this, but that fact alone invalidates the match immediately.

Knowing that would be the outcome, the refs should have used some common sense/discretion, and made sure it didn't happen.  Especially considering the change in scoring was entirely subjective (as opposed to a clear, objective pushout, or takedown).  If they couldn't actually award 2 & 2, they should have just scored it 2 Yianni.

Zain was able to wrestle the final a minute or whatever entirely aware that he was losing, and couldn't score.  That he arguably could have been leading on criteria, yet still lost, would have been a slight injustice, but at least he controlled his own fate.  Taking all of that away from Yianni, and for a subjective re-scoring of a move that really could have been scored 2-2, is just incompetent.

Righting a questionable, subjective wrong with an objective wrong, and objectively worse at that, wasn't the right call.

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4 minutes ago, whaletail said:

That honestly beggars belief.

If it happened, it might very well help their cause, but I'd be shocked if the NLWC coaches were even aware of the rule, let alone willing to hold onto their brick (under the assumption that the chair was going to catch the mistake on his own).  They'd throw the brick as a means to inform the officials, knowing full well it wouldn't cost them a challenge.

Either that, or they'd bring it to someone's attention verbally.

It's pretty clear they had no idea a procedural error had been committed, but even if that conversation did place, I think we'd also have heard about it (via FRL etc.).

Personally, I hate the fact that Yianni has to appeal these procedural issues, when the biggest problem is the unfairness associated with not being able to wrestle the final minute knowing you're actually losing.  Somehow that's been lost in all this, but that fact alone invalidates the match immediately.

Knowing that would be the outcome, the refs should have used some common sense/discretion, and made sure it didn't happen.  Especially considering the change in scoring was entirely subjective (as opposed to a clear, objective pushout, or takedown).  If they couldn't actually award 2 & 2, they should have just scored it 2 Yianni.

Zain was able to wrestle the final a minute or whatever entirely aware that he was losing, and couldn't score.  That he arguably could have been leading on criteria, yet still lost, would have been a slight injustice, but at least he controlled his own fate.  Taking all of that away from Yianni, and for a subjective re-scoring of a move that really could have been scored 2-2, is just incompetent.

Righting a questionable, subjective wrong with an objective wrong, and objectively worse at that, wasn't the right call.

oh no,  I feel it coming

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On 8/11/2019 at 8:41 PM, TBar1977 said:

You can understand because it has been said many times already, a lot was happening in the final 45 seconds of the match. The Chair made a colossal blunde r in scoring. A scramble of epic proportions was ongoing. None of the Ref, Judge or Chair ever sought to stop that scramble. The ref posts one score, the judge a different score, and the Chair a third different and obviously not allowable score. And its that wrong score that is posted. 

The referee delegate is the ultimate authority over the match, and its their job to settle scoring issues. Given all those facts, what should Tucci have done? Submitted to the Chair? But the Chair is not the ultimate authority, and its the Chair's mistake that led to all this. 

Tucci had the ultimate authority to review that sequence. When the brick came in he was required to review it. Nt reviewing it was no longer an option. Was accepting the brick reasonable? I contend given all these crazy facts that it was just that. Reasonable. Get the score right. This is what Tucci did and his actions were entirely warranted given the problems the Chair handed to him. 

The only problem with that is that it resulted in a much bigger injustice.  Yianni didn't get the same opportunity Zain had; he didn't get to wrestle the last minute(s) aware he was actually losing.

Zain did.  And couldn't score.

Nor do I believe the rules were meant to allow for that eventuality.  It's one thing to challenge a late scramble and change the winner, as both wrestlers were aware of the score moments earlier.  Going back a minute or two and changing the winner is manifestly different.

 

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Been in contact with 2 folks that are both very knowledgeable of the rules and are close to those making the decision. For reasons no one has mentioned on this thread, both are doubtful the results will be overturned. However both said nothing would surprise them. 

What I think is interesting that a decision has not been made yet!

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1 hour ago, whaletail said:

If someone believes they can refute my argument, I'm all ears.  And if they do, my mind will change.

I’m not saying I completely disagree.  But I’m sure there’s someone on here who believes he/she can refute that argument. 

(Although not to the level of changing your mind. He/She not that good at debates, a lot of turns...)

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53 minutes ago, gowrestle said:

Been in contact with 2 folks that are both very knowledgeable of the rules and are close to those making the decision. For reasons no one has mentioned on this thread, both are doubtful the results will be overturned. However both said nothing would surprise them. 

What I think is interesting that a decision has not been made yet!

Two questions: and I’m sure you don’t have the answer but just to put them out there. 

1) Will we be privy to transcripts once it’s over?

2). How many Cornell lawyers were present (enter laughing emoji)

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1 hour ago, gowrestle said:

Been in contact with 2 folks that are both very knowledgeable of the rules and are close to those making the decision. For reasons no one has mentioned on this thread, both are doubtful the results will be overturned. However both said nothing would surprise them. 

What I think is interesting that a decision has not been made yet!

Could you elaborate on “for reasons no one has mentioned”? Thanks

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1 hour ago, tbert said:

  The problem with your argument lies with "just give Yanni 2"

This, that’s precisely why I made the comment “not completely disagree”. Can’t agree with if you don’t know, just give a guy two. Made it sound like he’s coming from a very biased perspective. (Not that that’s a rare thing around here)

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3 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Been in contact with 2 folks that are both very knowledgeable of the rules and are close to those making the decision. For reasons no one has mentioned on this thread, both are doubtful the results will be overturned. However both said nothing would surprise them. 

What I think is interesting that a decision has not been made yet!

Have the reasons been mentioned on one of the many other threads on this topic?

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2 hours ago, tbert said:

I can absolutely refute the argument and have in th posts over the past few months,  but have no interest in rerunning it again.  The problem with your argument lies with "just give Yanni 2"

I don't care if you give Yianni 2, figure out a way to keep the 2 & 2, or just refuse the challenge, but depriving Yianni the opportunity to wrestle the final minute or two aware of the score is a bigger injustice than depriving Zain of 2 points that aren't even clear cut to begin with.

To be clear, I'm claiming that, in trying to follow the rules as closely as possible, the refs/chair missed the forest for the trees, and ended up perpetrating a much bigger injustice than that which they were trying to correct in the first place.

Not only haven't you refuted my argument, you haven't even addressed it.

 

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Just now, whaletail said:

I don't care if you give Yianni 2, figure out a way to keep the 2 & 2, or just refuse the challenge, but depriving Yianni the opportunity to wrestle the final minute or two aware of the score is a bigger injustice than depriving Zain of 2 points that aren't even clear cut to begin with.

To be clear, I'm claiming that, in trying to follow the rules as closely as possible, the refs/chair missed the forest for the trees, and ended up perpetrating a much bigger injustice than that which they were trying to correct in the first place.

Not only haven't you refuted my argument, you haven't even addressed it.

 

It has been addressed for two months where have you been Rip?

 

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1 hour ago, whaletail said:

but depriving Yianni the opportunity to wrestle the final minute or two aware of the score is a bigger injustice than depriving Zain of 2 points that aren't even clear cut to begin with.

 

 

This I agree with, except for “the final minute or two”. It was 45 seconds (give or take a couple seconds). When you exaggerate the reality, you hurt your stance more than help it. But I think your basic premise is accurate. Just “keep it real”. 

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6 hours ago, whaletail said:

That honestly beggars belief.

If it happened, it might very well help their cause, but I'd be shocked if the NLWC coaches were even aware of the rule, let alone willing to hold onto their brick (under the assumption that the chair was going to catch the mistake on his own).  They'd throw the brick as a means to inform the officials, knowing full well it wouldn't cost them a challenge.

Either that, or they'd bring it to someone's attention verbally.

It's pretty clear they had no idea a procedural error had been committed, but even if that conversation did place, I think we'd also have heard about it (via FRL etc.).

Personally, I hate the fact that Yianni has to appeal these procedural issues, when the biggest problem is the unfairness associated with not being able to wrestle the final minute knowing you're actually losing.  Somehow that's been lost in all this, but that fact alone invalidates the match immediately.

Knowing that would be the outcome, the refs should have used some common sense/discretion, and made sure it didn't happen.  Especially considering the change in scoring was entirely subjective (as opposed to a clear, objective pushout, or takedown).  If they couldn't actually award 2 & 2, they should have just scored it 2 Yianni.

Zain was able to wrestle the final a minute or whatever entirely aware that he was losing, and couldn't score.  That he arguably could have been leading on criteria, yet still lost, would have been a slight injustice, but at least he controlled his own fate.  Taking all of that away from Yianni, and for a subjective re-scoring of a move that really could have been scored 2-2, is just incompetent.

Righting a questionable, subjective wrong with an objective wrong, and objectively worse at that, wasn't the right call.

So you are saying Yianni wasn't trying to score in the last 45 seconds? 

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