Anything from arbitration?

[headshuck 2,122]

Reminds me of the PSU argument that Nolf wasn't wrestling in the 3rd because he didn't need to score vs. Hidlay.

Nolf fans said "Yeah, maybe the officials got the call wrong, but Nolf would have scored more points if he needed to."

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by headshuck

[Perry 1,165]

37 minutes ago, headshuck said:

Reminds me of the PSU argument that Nolf wasn't wrestling in the 3rd because he didn't need to score vs. Hidlay.

Nolf fans said "Yeah, maybe the officials got the call wrong, but Nolf would have scored more points if he needed to."

 

That was then, this is now.. lol

[hammerlockthree 1,723]

I will say for Nolf that his body of work affords him the right to trade on his reputation in my mind. At least in this situation. 

[dmm53 434]

If there is a five second rule for throwing the brick, there should be a five day rule for making a decision about the outcome.  

How many months are we past that? 

This legal nonsense is so typically and pathetically American.  

Maybe  celebutante lawyer Alan Dirt-Show-Its will get involved; that is, unless he is shilling on TV for the latest serial killer, pedophile or corrupt President.

Edited August 14, 2019 by dmm53

[whaletail 195]

7 hours ago, Lurker said:

This I agree with, except for “the final minute or two”. It was 45 seconds (give or take a couple seconds). When you exaggerate the reality, you hurt your stance more than help it. But I think your basic premise is accurate. Just “keep it real”. 

I thought the 2&2 call was earlier in the second, but if I'm mistaken, I apologize.

[whaletail 195]

7 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

So you are saying Yianni wasn't trying to score in the last 45 seconds? 

If the 2&2 was that late, I think it does lessen the injustice slightly.  So does the fact that they were in a single scramble for the remainder of the match (vs. on their feet, with Yianni able to more easily shut it down).  And yes, I'm sure Yianni was trying to score.

Nonetheless, aware of the "correct" score, I think it's fair to assume he would have wrestled that 45s differently.  Whether he would have scored, we'll never know.

@tbert

Considering you haven't addressed my argument in any of the threads I've read, and aren't taking advantage of the opportunity now, I doubt I'm alone in assuming you simply can't.

[whaletail 195]

On 8/12/2019 at 8:21 PM, Panther78 said:

Anybody have a  link to the match???? Sorry.......I'm new to the sport!!!!

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it's locked behind Flo's paywall.

[1032004 630]

2 hours ago, whaletail said:

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it's locked behind Flo's paywall.

 

[CrewWrestling 27]

15 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Then they would be reasons mentioned!

Sir, yes sir! I didn’t realize that those reasons were top secret highly classified. I now realize that we’re protecting matters of national security & won’t be so foolish to repeat my mistake. 

Edited August 14, 2019 by CrewWrestling

[Mphillips 559]

4 minutes ago, CrewWrestling said:

Sir, yes sir! I didn’t realize that those reasons were top secret highly classified. I now realize that we’re protecting matters of national security & won’t be so foolish to repeat my mistake. 

Now everyone is catching on.  LOL.

[TBar1977 3,667]

4 hours ago, whaletail said:

If the 2&2 was that late, I think it does lessen the injustice slightly.  So does the fact that they were in a single scramble for the remainder of the match (vs. on their feet, with Yianni able to more easily shut it down).  And yes, I'm sure Yianni was trying to score.

Nonetheless, aware of the "correct" score, I think it's fair to assume he would have wrestled that 45s differently.  Whether he would have scored, we'll never know.

@tbert

Considering you haven't addressed my argument in any of the threads I've read, and aren't taking advantage of the opportunity now, I doubt I'm alone in assuming you simply can't.

Fwiw, I think they were both trying to score during the last 45. I think Zain was in the better position to score at one point, but Yianni was in the better position at another point. Neither was able to score despite best efforts. Either way, each wrestler is supposed to wrestle all the way through every position and both had to know that anything close would result in a brick toss. I don't find the argument that one wrestler thought he was ahead t be a compelling argument to make to the arbitrator, especially given that kind of scramble. 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by TBar1977

[whaletail 195]

26 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Fwiw, I think they were both trying to score during the last 45. I think Zain was in the better position to score at one point, but Yianni was in the better position at another point. Neither was able to score despite best efforts. Either way, each wrestler is supposed to wrestle all the way through every position and both had to know that anything close would result in a brick toss. I don't find the argument that one wrestler thought he was ahead t be a compelling argument to make to the arbitrator, especially given that kind of scramble. 

 

Although I agree that the lengthy scramble lessened the impact associated with not knowing the correct score (Yianni couldn't really shut it down while wrestling through those positions, and would've grabbed any points available to keep Zain from scoring, as well as ice the match), and doubt it will materially affect the arbitration (it wasn't itself a procedural error, nor really the direct result of a procedural error), I still think it's a bigger injustice than Zain would have suffered had the challenge been denied, or otherwise nullified.

That said, I think there's a reasonable argument that the very first scoring sequence of the match should have been either 2 or 4 for Zain alone, and while that has no bearing on what transpired later, Zain may have been on the wrong end of more than one bad call.  At the time, I was surprised Cael didn't challenge the call, but I haven't re-watched the sequence since, and have learned not to trust what I think I see in real time too much.  Scrambles are just hard to follow in real-time.

With all that in mind, I'm less upset with the result than I was, but still believe re-wrestling the second match is the best course of action.  Just my opinion, of course.

Finally, I'm very surprised the arbitrator hasn't yet ruled, and hope it's resolved today.

[TBar1977 3,667]

14 minutes ago, whaletail said:

Although I agree that the lengthy scramble lessened the impact associated with not knowing the correct score (Yianni couldn't really shut it down while wrestling through those positions, and would've grabbed any points available to keep Zain from scoring, as well as ice the match), and doubt it will materially affect the arbitration (it wasn't itself a procedural error, nor really the direct result of a procedural error), I still think it's a bigger injustice than Zain would have suffered had the challenge been denied, or otherwise nullified.

That said, I think there's a reasonable argument that the very first scoring sequence of the match should have been either 2 or 4 for Zain alone, and while that has no bearing on what transpired later, Zain may have been on the wrong end of more than one bad call.  At the time, I was surprised Cael didn't challenge the call, but I haven't re-watched the sequence since, and have learned not to trust what I think I see in real time too much.  Scrambles are just hard to follow in real-time.

With all that in mind, I'm less upset with the result than I was, but still believe re-wrestling the second match is the best course of action.  Just my opinion, of course.

Finally, I'm very surprised the arbitrator hasn't yet ruled, and hope it's resolved today.

I think Yianni has a style whereby he tactically goes with the movement once he realizes he can't stop it. He goes with it as hard as he can. Most wrestlers fight against that double and the end result is 4 Red in that sequence. Yianni rolls hard thru it trying to get exposure points, (which is also exactly what he did in the final sequence, just not on a double) imo. 

We have all seen blast doubles where the offensive wrestler is rolled thru and exposes his back but still comes out ahead 4-0 and the thought process is that he went so hard to get the TD and back exposure on the opposing wrestler and the roll thru was just a natural consequence of his offensive move. Yianni gets a lot of points on his opponents moves by ceasing fighting them off and then simply rolling thru as hard as possible. Are all those points legit? I would say some are, some are not. If he knows he is going to be taken to his own back and simply can no longer prevent that from happening, should he be rewarded for accelerating a movement that is going to happen with or without his ability to stop it? The move ends up having a very different feel to it when you are watching it, but does Yianni initiate or just react to something he can no longer prevent from happening? 

In other words, did he really expose Zain on that double, or was Zain going to be exposed because of his own effort to take Yianni down anyway. Its a tough call, but one I have seen go 4-0 for the offensive wrestler many times, maybe even a majority of times. 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by TBar1977

[Mphillips 559]

"In other words, did he really expose Zain on that double, or was Zain going to be exposed anyway. Its a tough call, but one I have seen go 4-0 for the offensive wrestler many times, maybe even a majority of times."

I really agree with this.  That 4-2 and 2 was challenge, 'worthy' but it was so early in the match I don't believe  it was even considered?

[Crotalus 369]

6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

We have all seen blast doubles where the offensive wrestler is rolled thru and exposes his back but still comes out ahead 4-0 and the thought process is that he went so hard to get the TD and back exposure on the opposing wrestler and the roll thru was just a natural consequence of his offensive move. Yianni gets a lot of points on his opponents moves by ceasing fighting them off and then simply rolling thru as hard as possible. Are all those points legit? I would say some are, some are not. If he knows he is going to be taken to his own back and simply can no longer prevent that from happening, should he be rewarded for accelerating a movement that is going to happen with or without his ability to stop it?

 

You don't watch much freestyle if you think this doesn't happen all the time in international wrestling. Inexperienced Americans fall victim to this all the time when coming from a folkstyle background. It is good wrestling, not some exploitation that Yianni has found

We've seen these situations play out in Burrough/Dake matches. It often comes down to whether the ref believes the defensive wrestler initiated the action or changed the direction of the offensive wrestler. The Yianni/Zain position was particularly difficult because it appears that either of the wrestlers could have initiated the action.

[red blades 216]

17 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Been in contact with 2 folks that are both very knowledgeable of the rules and are close to those making the decision. For reasons no one has mentioned on this thread, both are doubtful the results will be overturned. However both said nothing would surprise them. 

What I think is interesting that a decision has not been made yet!

Pure speculation - maybe there  won't  be a decision?

[TBar1977 3,667]

42 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

You don't watch much freestyle if you think this doesn't happen all the time in international wrestling. Inexperienced Americans fall victim to this all the time when coming from a folkstyle background. It is good wrestling, not some exploitation that Yianni has found

We've seen these situations play out in Burrough/Dake matches. It often comes down to whether the ref believes the defensive wrestler initiated the action or changed the direction of the offensive wrestler. The Yianni/Zain position was particularly difficult because it appears that either of the wrestlers could have initiated the action.

I said some are, some are not. Of course it depends on who initiated. But Yianni's funk roll is what you see when the other wrestler has already beaten Yianni's head and hands, and his sprawl. So that funk roll is the last line of defense. All I am saying is that once your last line of defense gets broken and you know you are going for a ride, then going with it can create a different look and feel to it rather than further attempt to fight it. Yianni's funk roll is good, but whose action? I think a lot of times he's getting taken for a ride anyway.

[Crotalus 369]

52 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I said some are, some are not. Of course it depends on who initiated. But Yianni's funk roll is what you see when the other wrestler has already beaten Yianni's head and hands, and his sprawl. So that funk roll is the last line of defense. All I am saying is that once your last line of defense gets broken and you know you are going for a ride, then going with it can create a different look and feel to it rather than further attempt to fight it. Yianni's funk roll is good, but whose action? I think a lot of times he's getting taken for a ride anyway.

The bolded portion is exactly right. Why would you continue to fight it and potentially give up two when you can score points of your own?

Again, you are acting like this exclusive to Yianni and somehow should be discounted. This happens (or is attempted) in international wrestling all the time. It is very savvy freestyle wrestling. And inexperienced folkstylers get caught by it, because you have to be able to control the opponent through the takedown. If the defensive wrestler can stop the momentum of the offensive wrestler before attempting to roll them through OR change their direction as they roll through, it is the defensive wrestlers points. I'm sorry you don't like it.

[TBar1977 3,667]

7 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

The bolded portion is exactly right. Why would you continue to fight it and potentially give up two when you can score points of your own?

Again, you are acting like this exclusive to Yianni and somehow should be discounted. This happens (or is attempted) in international wrestling all the time. It is very savvy freestyle wrestling. And inexperienced folkstylers get caught by it, because you have to be able to control the opponent through the takedown. If the defensive wrestler can stop the momentum of the offensive wrestler before attempting to roll them through OR change their direction as they roll through, it is the defensive wrestlers points. I'm sorry you don't like it.

Not exclusive to Yianni at all. You are reading too much into it. 

[Crotalus 369]

6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Not exclusive to Yianni at all. You are reading too much into it. 

Ok. I'll stop reading into it, even though the only reason you brought it up is to somehow downplay or discredit his ability to score from those positions.

"Are all those points legit?"
If he stopped the momentum of the offensive wrestler or changed their direction....yes.

[Mphillips 559]

10 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Not exclusive to Yianni at all. You are reading too much into it. 

TBar, It seems to me that folks can not avoid wanting to argue with you? They just can't do it. 

[Crotalus 369]

1 minute ago, Mphillips said:

TBar, It seems to me that folks can not avoid wanting to argue with you? They just can't do it. 

Isn't arguing the whole purpose of message boards? If you say no, we are going to have to argue about that.

[Mphillips 559]

1 minute ago, Crotalus said:

Isn't arguing the whole purpose of message boards? If you say no, we are going to have to argue about that.

No argument here.  LOL.  I might say, 'discussion' but I don't want to argue.  

[TBar1977 3,667]

31 minutes ago, Mphillips said:

TBar, It seems to me that folks can not avoid wanting to argue with you? They just can't do it. 

To be fair, I am pretty good at drawing them into the weeds. Once I get them going they can barely help themselves. ha ha. 

[Mphillips 559]

2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

To be fair, I am pretty good at drawing them into the weeds. Once I get them going they can barely help themselves. ha ha. 

Understood.  That is a much unheralded skill. +1