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If Rob Koll had become the Penn State Coach?

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6 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Iowa State would have all the titles. 

Cael:  now listen and listen good.  Take your ego out of it.  You are a very good coach but no way you win more than 2 at ISU.  Kohl and Ryan win the rest.  Maybe Tommy gets one.  Perhaps Casey gets the job at Minny and takes one, too.

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I doubt Koll would have won a single title at PSU. I'd be rooting for him, but sadly it would all be in vain. 

His father Bill was an incredible wrestler given his history on the mat, but as a coach he was about average for PSU standards. Koll coached from 65 to 78 and had 5 EIWA or EWL titles. No NCAA titles. Rich Lorenzo followed Bill Koll and coached 1 more year but had 11 league titles. No NCAA titles from Lorenzo either. Winning NCAA titles is damn hard. 

Given Rob's coaching record I would expect he'd have outperformed his father in the coaching category, but I just don't see any NCAA titles under him. 

Cael Sanderson is on a different planet coaching wise. He is the reason Penn State churns out titles the way they do. I agree PSU was a sleeping giant, but it took a Cael Sanderson to win all those titles. Not just anyone, even a really good coach, was going to waltz into PSU and run the table the way Cael has done. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

First off, I don't think ANY of the coaches at PSU, prior to Cael, where at the level of Koll.  Also, PSU was a SLEEPING GIANT for a very long time.  All it took was the right HC.  The same can be said about tOSU, prior to Ryan.  

If Koll was at PSU, he would have woken the Giant as well.   Now, I am not saying he would have "refined" the Giant nearly to the level that Cael has, but he would have made them strong enough that the years 110ish type points would have been enough to win, they would have.

Also, I think he IS a top 5 HC and Cael is the ONLY 1 clearly ahead of him.  With the right resources, he could and would beat anyone with equal or lesser resources, 2 out of 10.  Which would be enough to have won 2 in the past 10!

I agree he's top 5.  I agree Cael is the only one clearly ahead of him. He absolutely might be the 2nd best coach going these days.  He also fits Cornell perfectly.  

I disagree that PSU was a slam dunk to improve.  They are a historic also ran that I think would return to below elite status even now if Cael left.  I think they are geographically in the right spot and the rest is about Cael.  I think with any coach other than Cael they stay well behind the historic powers (OSU, Iowa).  I think PSU under Koll is in the hunt but clearly behind those 2 and the Cael ISU teams (since he stays there in this scenario).  Tom Ryan won a title in the one down year for PSU.  It's totally possible Koll wins a title in a year like that, but I think it's less than 50/50 and I think multiple in 10 years is super unlikely.  

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6 hours ago, Dr. Novak said:

On line classes for Wharton are offered at State College and PSU business graduates diplomas say Wharton.

They only say Wharton if the grads write in "Wharton" in crayon.

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ISU had been one of the nation's top wrestling schools before Cael got there. But he never won a title at ISU. It took the PSU advantage for him to win. That said, he deserves a lot of credit for winning so much.

Cornell was never a top wrestling school pre-Koll. But Koll has had several top-5 finishes and is perennially in the top-10. And the fact is, many, probably most of the kids who wrestle at PSU could not be recruited by Cornell.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

I doubt Koll would have won a single title at PSU. I'd be rooting for him, but sadly it would all be in vain. 

His father Bill was an incredible wrestler given his history on the mat, but as a coach he was about average for PSU standards. Koll coached from 65 to 78 and had 5 EIWA or EWL titles. No NCAA titles. Rich Lorenzo followed Bill Koll and coached 1 more year but had 11 league titles. No NCAA titles from Lorenzo either. Winning NCAA titles is damn hard. 

Given Rob's coaching record I would expect he'd have outperformed his father in the coaching category, but I just don't see any NCAA titles under him. 

Cael Sanderson is on a different planet coaching wise. He is the reason Penn State churns out titles the way they do. I agree PSU was a sleeping giant, but it took a Cael Sanderson to win all those titles. Not just anyone, even a really good coach, was going to waltz into PSU and run the table the way Cael has done. 

How many titles do you think Cael has if he stayed at ISU?

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

How many titles do you think Cael has if he stayed at ISU?

Probably as many as he has at PSU. That is as good an answer as any. Thankfully I have no need to speculate since he wins so many at Penn State. 

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

ISU had been one of the nation's top wrestling schools before Cael got there. But he never won a title at ISU. It took the PSU advantage for him to win. That said, he deserves a lot of credit for winning so much.

Cornell was never a top wrestling school pre-Koll. But Koll has had several top-5 finishes and is perennially in the top-10. And the fact is, many, probably most of the kids who wrestle at PSU could not be recruited by Cornell.

Cael coached 3 years at ISU.  The 4 years prior to Cael they were 19, 6, 10, 13.  The 3 years of Cael they were 2, 5, 3.  And they had Taylor on the way in.  PSU needed Sanderson approximately 100Xs more than Cael needed PSU.

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57 minutes ago, misterc said:

Maybe not all but they would have had some.  Cael already had DT, who I still think was the catalyst for a lot of PSU's success.

If I were a bookie I'd put the over/under at 3 to this point.  The Hall's and Nickal's et al probably would have still followed but I wonder how many of the PA kids would have had another high profile coach came in.  Plus you're in state with one of the power houses.

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1 hour ago, misterc said:

Maybe not all but they would have had some.  Cael already had DT, who I still think was the catalyst for a lot of PSU's success.

DT certainly WAS a catalyst. Lots of young guns wanted to come to Penn State and score, score, score like DT. I think Nolf and Nickal come to mind. 

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On 8/15/2019 at 12:36 PM, misterc said:

Maybe not all but they would have had some.  Cael already had DT, who I still think was the catalyst for a lot of PSU's success.

Taylor without Ruth and Penn State would not have quite so many Titles. Ed Ruth was worth his weight in Gold and doesn't get enough credit for how good he was. Smart wrestler who pushed Taylor a lot.

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To really go down this rabbit hole of hypothetical dreamland:

1.  Who takes over at Cornell assuming Hahn follows Koll (which I think he would).  Popilitzio?  Who then would be HC at NC State now?

2.  Would TnT be fired by now because ISU would've passed Iowa by now.  Who would be in charge now?

3.  Aside from the big PA 4 (Mega, Zain, Nolf and Joseph).  With no TnT at Iowa, does Lee stay close to home and wrestle for Koll?  BTW, the big PA 4 all would've ended at PSU under Koll, all 4 looked at.  Two couldn't afford it with no scholarships and one couldn't get into the Ivy League curriculum.

4.  Who would've transfered from Cornell to PSU?  Dake?  Does Bosak come home and win a title for Koll at PSU?  Does Dean come to PSU then?  Director for the NLWC is probably a better gig than FLWC.

Both Isu and PSU would have won NCAA championships in the last 10 years.

To suggest Koll would've never won one at PSU is just flat out stupid and anyone who thinks like that should just walk away from the sport forever because you offer nothing to it.

Wright, Molinaro and Ruth weren't going anywhere.  Imagine Dake/Molinaro and Bosak/Ruth/Wright all on the same team.

Bubba would've never left either.

PSU would still be a powerhouse.

Jeez....

Edited by Boompa

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On 8/14/2019 at 8:16 PM, red blades said:

BTW - you all realize Rob Koll has a winning record coaching against Cael?

Is that true? When was the last time Cornell had a dual with PSU?

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3 hours ago, NJDan said:

Is that true? When was the last time Cornell had a dual with PSU?

Cael hasn't just coached at PSU - Koll beat him, I believe at National Duals, while he was coaching at Iowa State. (Which is why Cael refuses to wrestle Cornell since)

Edited by red blades

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Koll's Cornell team beat Sanderson's Iowa State Cyclone team in a close dual in 2009. In what would become a pattern that still holds, Sanderson's team outscored them at NCAA's. 

Incidentally, Iowa State went into Ithaca the following year under new coach Kevin Jackson and pounded Koll's Cornell squad pretty good taking away from the argument that Cael Sanderson left Iowa State high and dry. 

Edited by TBar1977

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I think he is just as good of a coach as Cael (with a completely different style of coaching, mind you), but he doesn’t have the name Cael Sanderson. So many great wrestlers want to wrestle for the living legend. David Taylor would have won his two titles be at Iowa State had Koll been at PSU. So when you mix the name, the great coaching ability, and getting everyone from Pennsylvania it’s just a perfect storm for a dynasty. I do think Koll would have won between 2 and 5 titles. But they would have been closer and you would see some down years.

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