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Fletcher

Upper weights have more development potential than lightweights

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Just a theory based on personal observations.

It seems like 125 lbers often come in as finished products and don't improve much from freshman to senior year. As we move up the weight classes to around 174 or 184, there seems to be a shift and guys from 184 thru heavy tend to show greater improvement from freshman to senior year. In fact, it's not uncommon to see guys who AA senior year at 197 who were .500 as freshman. Why is this?

Again, this is just a theory and of course there are always exceptions. Anyone else see this as a trend or disagree? What would be a good way of proving/disproving - looking at how many 4 time AAs there are each year at 125/133 vs. 184/197? 

This is the garbage I think about during the offseason...

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Interesting topics. 

Two thoughts - 

1) Are upper weights more likely to have played another sport (football) which may have slowed their development? 

2) Strength may be a larger factor in the upper weights. It is easier to build strength as you move into your 20's. 

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I would agree with this.  Lightweights tend to focus on just wrestling while most upperweights are 2-3 sport athletes.

Strength is also an issue.  Pound for pound a 125 out of HS is stronger than a 195 pounder.  Lightweights scramble and elevate their opponents far more often than upperweights.

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The 125ers have wrestled against 14 and 15 year olds for most of their high school career.  Heavier weights have wrestled against guys who are their age or older.  Once in college, the 125s are all developmentally mature and that advantage they had in high school is gone.  

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4 hours ago, Fletcher said:

Just a theory based on personal observations.

It seems like 125 lbers often come in as finished products and don't improve much from freshman to senior year. As we move up the weight classes to around 174 or 184, there seems to be a shift and guys from 184 thru heavy tend to show greater improvement from freshman to senior year. In fact, it's not uncommon to see guys who AA senior year at 197 who were .500 as freshman. Why is this?

Again, this is just a theory and of course there are always exceptions. Anyone else see this as a trend or disagree? What would be a good way of proving/disproving - looking at how many 4 time AAs there are each year at 125/133 vs. 184/197? 

This is the garbage I think about during the offseason...

I think the biggest development in those lightweights you are talking about is in the smaller details and intricacies of technique and positioning that they need to elevate to reach the top at the next level.  Alot of the heavyweights have to learn to moved differently/better than what they could get away with in HS, and there is more "eye evident", meaning you can just see that better in the flow of matches.  (if that makes sense).

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Interesting topic/observation. Not to state the obvious but I think it mostly just comes down to strength. Most of the truly elite upper weight wrestlers (who could contend for a title right away) are focused exclusively on wrestling long before they get to college. Guys like Snyder and Gable weren’t distracted by football. I’m talking our truly elite guys, not guys on the AA bubble. 

Some interesting stats I just dug up:

Only 1 true freshman has won an ncaa title at either of our 2 heaviest weight classes (Cox). Only 3 true freshman have won an ncaa title in one of our 4 heaviest weight classes (Cox, Martin and Hall). 

6 true freshman have won titles at one of our 2 lightest weight classes. 10 true freshman have won ncaa titles in one of our 4 lightest weight classes (based on our current ncaa weights). 

Maybe a topic for another thread but I think it’s really interesting how all 3 of our upper weight true freshman champs came in the past 5 years. Not to mention how close 2 others (Gable and Snyder) were in that same period. Could just be a coincidence...or could be another example of how getting our guys exposed to elite level coaches (including strength and conditioning coaches) and more elite training partners earlier in their careers is having a big impact on more than just our senior level performance. 

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:

Interesting topic/observation. Not to state the obvious but I think it mostly just comes down to strength. Most of the truly elite upper weight wrestlers (who could contend for a title right away) are focused exclusively on wrestling long before they get to college. Guys like Snyder and Gable weren’t distracted by football. I’m talking our truly elite guys, not guys on the AA bubble. 

Some interesting stats I just dug up:

Only 1 true freshman has won an ncaa title at either of our 2 heaviest weight classes (Cox). Only 3 true freshman have won an ncaa title in one of our 4 heaviest weight classes (Cox, Martin and Hall). 

6 true freshman have won titles at one of our 2 lightest weight classes. 10 true freshman have won ncaa titles in one of our 4 lightest weight classes (based on our current ncaa weights). 

Maybe a topic for another thread but I think it’s really interesting how all 3 of our upper weight true freshman champs came in the past 5 years. Not to mention how close 2 others (Gable and Snyder) were in that same period. Could just be a coincidence...or could be another example of how getting our guys exposed to elite level coaches (including strength and conditioning coaches) and more elite training partners earlier in their careers is having a big impact on more than just our senior level performance. 

Have you heard of Dick Hutton?

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4 hours ago, MDogg said:

Interesting topic/observation. Not to state the obvious but I think it mostly just comes down to strength. Most of the truly elite upper weight wrestlers (who could contend for a title right away) are focused exclusively on wrestling long before they get to college. Guys like Snyder and Gable weren’t distracted by football. I’m talking our truly elite guys, not guys on the AA bubble. 

Some interesting stats I just dug up:

Only 1 true freshman has won an ncaa title at either of our 2 heaviest weight classes (Cox). Only 3 true freshman have won an ncaa title in one of our 4 heaviest weight classes (Cox, Martin and Hall). 

6 true freshman have won titles at one of our 2 lightest weight classes. 10 true freshman have won ncaa titles in one of our 4 lightest weight classes (based on our current ncaa weights). 

Maybe a topic for another thread but I think it’s really interesting how all 3 of our upper weight true freshman champs came in the past 5 years. Not to mention how close 2 others (Gable and Snyder) were in that same period. Could just be a coincidence...or could be another example of how getting our guys exposed to elite level coaches (including strength and conditioning coaches) and more elite training partners earlier in their careers is having a big impact on more than just our senior level performance. 

Any chance that the lack of large, elite true freshmen has something to do with football or basketball?

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31 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Any chance that the lack of large, elite true freshmen has something to do with football or basketball?

On one hand, most of the athletic big kids are playing football or basketball and not wrestling; on the other hand there's a lot more kids who weigh 174+ than there are kids who weigh 141 or less.

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17 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Any chance that the lack of large, elite true freshmen has something to do with football or basketball?

Because football and basketball only siphon off true freshman? Do those elite athletes who play football and basketball all come back to wrestling after 1 year in college? 

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4 hours ago, MDogg said:

Because football and basketball only siphon off true freshman? Do those elite athletes who play football and basketball all come back to wrestling after 1 year in college? 

ummmm no, but the sports take the best athletes, who never get a shot to wrestle in college as true freshmen because they are playing for Alabama or Duke.

 

What a ludicrous question.

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1 hour ago, AHamilton said:

ummmm no, but the sports take the best athletes, who never get a shot to wrestle in college as true freshmen because they are playing for Alabama or Duke.

 

What a ludicrous question.

How exactly do football and basketball skew the RELATIVE COMPETITIVE BALANCE between true freshman and upper classmen in the heavier weights? If those sports siphon off most of the best athletes - which they do - it should result in MORE true freshman wrestling champs as the elite athletes who do wrestle should face weaker competition. 

Nobody is disputing that a lot of larger athletes pursue sports other than wrestling in college. What I am saying is that the resulting weaker field should make it EASIER for elite athletes who do wrestle in college to succeed as true freshman in the heavier weights.

Unless of course it’s just that strength and physical maturity are a bigger issue at the heavier weight classes, which was my original point. 

What a ludicrous and smug comment.

Edited by MDogg

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21 hours ago, MDogg said:

How exactly do football and basketball skew the RELATIVE COMPETITIVE BALANCE between true freshman and upper classmen in the heavier weights? If those sports siphon off most of the best athletes - which they do - it should result in MORE true freshman wrestling champs as the elite athletes who do wrestle should face weaker competition. 

Nobody is disputing that a lot of larger athletes pursue sports other than wrestling in college. What I am saying is that the resulting weaker field should make it EASIER for elite athletes who do wrestle in college to succeed as true freshman in the heavier weights.

Unless of course it’s just that strength and physical maturity are a bigger issue at the heavier weight classes, which was my original point. 

What a ludicrous and smug comment.

Ludicrous and smug?

How about reality and intelligent?

What pro sport are 130 lb Spencer Lee and 150 lb Yianni going to play?  None.

But I would bet that athletes like Lebron James and Aaron Donald have the physical tools to win NCAA titles as true freshmen.  And guess what?  There are a ton of those guys out there playing pro football and basketball, or even buried deep in rosters on Alabama, Clemson, Duke, etc.

The stud athlete population at the upper weights is seriously diminished due to pro sports that take our largest, most athletic human beings.  You know, the guys capable of winning as true freshmen.

Class Dismissed, NDoggy Dogg.....

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56 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Ludicrous and smug?

How about reality and intelligent?

What pro sport are 130 lb Spencer Lee and 150 lb Yianni going to play?  None.

But I would bet that athletes like Lebron James and Aaron Donald have the physical tools to win NCAA titles as true freshmen.  And guess what?  There are a ton of those guys out there playing pro football and basketball, or even buried deep in rosters on Alabama, Clemson, Duke, etc.

The stud athlete population at the upper weights is seriously diminished due to pro sports that take our largest, most athletic human beings.  You know, the guys capable of winning as true freshmen.

Class Dismissed, NDoggy Dogg.....

Apparently you didn’t even read my reply because I clearly said multiple times that sports like basketball and football do siphon off a ton of the larger elite athletes. But congratulations on reaching that conclusion yourself. 

Guess what...basketball and football may attract the vast majority of the elite athletes who would be at 197 and heavyweight in college, but they don’t get all of them. That’s the key. The net result is that the star athletes who do wrestle those weights in college like Cox, Nickal, Steveson, etc are competing against an athletically weaker field. That means they should dominate the field more easily.

Let’s say 90% of truly elite athletes who would wrestle heavyweight choose to play another sport in college. According to your logic, that would result in more parity and less dominance compared to weights like 125 that really don’t lose any elite athletes to other sports in college. The correct answer is that the remaining 10% who do wrestle heavyweight in college would have an even bigger advantage over the weaker field. We would see less parity and more guys having success as true freshman. Unless of course the real reason is that it’s an issue of strength and physical maturely (my original point). 

Now class is dismissed.

Edited by MDogg

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55 minutes ago, MDogg said:

Apparently you didn’t even read my reply because I clearly said multiple times that sports like basketball and football do siphon off a ton of the larger elite athletes. But congratulations on reaching that conclusion yourself. 

Guess what...basketball and football may attract the vast majority of the elite athletes who would be at 197 and heavyweight in college, but they don’t get all of them. That’s the key. The net result is that the star athletes who do wrestle those weights in college like Cox, Nickal, Steveson, etc are competing against an athletically weaker field. That means they should dominate the field more easily.

Let’s say 90% of truly elite athletes who would wrestle heavyweight choose to play another sport in college. According to your logic, that would result in more parity and less dominance compared to weights like 125 that really don’t lose any elite athletes to other sports in college. The correct answer is that the remaining 10% who do wrestle heavyweight in college would have an even bigger advantage over the weaker field. We would see less parity and more guys having success as true freshman. Unless of course the real reason is that it’s an issue of strength and physical maturely (my original point). 

Now class is dismissed.

 

but....but... but.... there are fewer elite studs...like, wayyyyy fewer big guys

Nickal a freshman 197? huh? Steveson could not play football for a mid major... Mocco tried at OSU and was a short yardage DT

The fact that you even count Nickal in this argument is disturbing and shows a total lack of knowledge and the facts.

Hasta la vista, baby!!!

 

Edited by AHamilton

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Just now, AHamilton said:

 

but....but... but.... there are fewer elite studs...like, wayyyyy fewer big guys

Nickal a freshman 197? huh? Steveson could not play football for a mid major... Mocco tried at OSU and was a short yardage DT

The fact that you even count Nickal in this argument is disturbing.

Hasta la vista, baby!!!

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On 8/16/2019 at 10:37 AM, Fletcher said:

Just a theory based on personal observations.

It seems like 125 lbers often come in as finished products and don't improve much from freshman to senior year. As we move up the weight classes to around 174 or 184, there seems to be a shift and guys from 184 thru heavy tend to show greater improvement from freshman to senior year. In fact, it's not uncommon to see guys who AA senior year at 197 who were .500 as freshman. Why is this?

Again, this is just a theory and of course there are always exceptions. Anyone else see this as a trend or disagree? What would be a good way of proving/disproving - looking at how many 4 time AAs there are each year at 125/133 vs. 184/197? 

This is the garbage I think about during the offseason...

Is it also possible that the good big guys were highly desired in other sports during the off-season and fewer of them were year round wrestlers (Mason Parris)?

Mason Parris was far from a finished product when he came to Michigan, but just dominated Junior Worlds and looked way better than he did a few months ago.

Add this phenomenon to the fact that the BEST large athletes go to other sports, and there is a smaller pool of well-trained 12 month a year wrestlers at the larger weights.

(and I'm not being snarky, I think it was a good question)

 

 

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On 8/16/2019 at 2:51 PM, jchapman said:

The 125ers have wrestled against 14 and 15 year olds for most of their high school career.  Heavier weights have wrestled against guys who are their age or older.  Once in college, the 125s are all developmentally mature and that advantage they had in high school is gone.  

This statement does not support the theory in the OP IMO, since in theory one would think “not having that advantage” would lead to there not being as many 4X AA’s.  

Besides, in D1 your statement is false.  103/106-112/113 pounders maybe, but there aren’t many HS senior 106/113 pounders that end up starting in D1.  119/120-125/126 sure but there are plenty of upperclassmen at those weights. 

...

But anyway, I’d guess it does have to do with football,  but more about specialization and not guys not wrestling in college.  A lot of 184-285’s probably played football in high school but don’t in college.

Can anyone name more than like 5 guys in the last 10 years that played football instead of wrestled in college and would’ve had a legit shot to win an NCAA title as a freshman? 

Edited by 1032004

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19 hours ago, AHamilton said:

 

but....but... but.... there are fewer elite studs...like, wayyyyy fewer big guys

Nickal a freshman 197? huh? Steveson could not play football for a mid major... Mocco tried at OSU and was a short yardage DT

The fact that you even count Nickal in this argument is disturbing and shows a total lack of knowledge and the facts.

Hasta la vista, baby!!!

 

Me referencing Nickal is “disturbing”?

Great Mocco reference. Because if there’s one thing Mocco was known for it was him succeeding because of his supreme athleticism the other heavyweights couldn’t match. 

Steveson could not play football for a mid major? Bahahahahaha. The guy who had the physical tools to win world junior freestyle title at heavyweight while still cadet eligible? The backflipping 6’1” 250 pound athletic freak who just beat Coon 8-1 while looking like the better upper body wrestler the whole match?

Since you’ve heard of Mocco maybe you’ve also heard of Stephen Neal? 

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Just now, MDogg said:

Me referencing Nickal is “disturbing”?

Great Mocco reference. Because if there’s one thing Mocco was known for it was him succeeding because of his supreme athleticism the other heavyweights couldn’t match. 

Steveson could not play football for a mid major? Bahahahahaha. The guy who had the physical tools to win world junior freestyle title at heavyweight while still cadet eligible? The backflipping 6’1” 250 pound athletic freak who just beat Coon 8-1 while looking like the better upper body wrestler the whole match?

Since you’ve heard of Mocco maybe you’ve also heard of Stephen Neal? 

Mocco could also back flip and do the splits.  Sounds like an athletic freak.  Also successful in Judo at the senior level at a young age.

Steve Neal was a late bloomer physically, as far as weight at least.  Wrestled at 189 where he was maybe 5th in CA?  He was an outstanding athlete who was a high school tennis player.

What position would Gable play at Alabama, at 6'1" 250? Starting back flipper?

And the Nickal reference is disturbing, because if you follow wrestling, you would know that he wasn't 197 as a true freshman.

Clown.

 

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2 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Mocco could also back flip and do the splits.  Sounds like an athletic freak.  Also successful in Judo at the senior level at a young age.

Steve Neal was a late bloomer physically, as far as weight at least.  Wrestled at 189 where he was maybe 5th in CA?  He was an outstanding athlete who was a high school tennis player.

What position would Gable play at Alabama, at 6'1" 250? Starting back flipper?

And the Nickal reference is disturbing, because if you follow wrestling, you would know that he wasn't 197 as a true freshman.

Clown.

 

I’d be willing to bet anything I follow College wrestling more closely than you and know Nickal didn’t wrestle 197 as a freshman. Few days ago I cited him at 174 his freshman year under the skinniest but strongest thread. I referenced him as someone who was competing against a thinner field at 197, not as a freshman. 

Pathetic attempt to just explain away Stephen Neal’s long NFL career. So he wasn’t always a heavyweight. Got it. Did you watch this years ncaa heavyweight final? A couple of real late bloomers there, right? 

So it’s either mid major or Alabama, huh? Nothing in between? 6-1 250lbs with the kind of elite balance and leverage Gable has...yeah it’s a huge stretch to say he has the tools to be a D1 DT. 

Bye loser...sweet profile pic and name too. Blocked.

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:

I’d be willing to bet anything I follow College wrestling more closely than you and know Nickal didn’t wrestle 197 as a freshman. Few days ago I cited him at 174 his freshman year under the skinniest but strongest thread. I referenced him as someone who was competing against a thinner field at 197, not as a freshman. 

Pathetic attempt to just explain away Stephen Neal’s long NFL career. So he wasn’t always a heavyweight. Got it. Did you watch this years ncaa heavyweight final? A couple of real late bloomers there, right? 

So it’s either mid major or Alabama, huh? Nothing in between? 6-1 250lbs with the kind of elite balance and leverage Gable has...yeah it’s a huge stretch to say he has the tools to be a D1 DT. 

Bye loser...sweet profile pic and name too. Blocked.

Thank you.

And yes... Cassar was a late bloomer.  One time state champ. 189 in HS. One time all-American.

Case closed.

Edited by AHamilton

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