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Koll on the Arbitration

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12 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  The system is geared towards sending the best team and it is fair.

They are not mutually exclusive in theory, of course, but the system currently is NOT fair, by definition. Granting any competitor special privileges based on last year's achievements is inherently unfair. It is not a level playing field for this year. It is a reward for a prior achievement that strongly suggests you're the best guy, and you now have to prove it again but you get the benefit of some advantages. I think it's a good system (maybe a tweak here and there could help) but it is NOT literally fair to all.

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7 minutes ago, LJB said:

i fail to see the relevance... just because a few vocal nobodies on a forum based around a niche' sport that don't like the color of singlet dake wore in his college years does not mean there is some huge controversy... 

 

Completely agree here. In no way should chat room banter influence or dictate policy. It’s really that simple. 

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

They are not mutually exclusive in theory, of course, but the system currently is NOT fair, by definition. Granting any competitor special privileges based on last year's achievements is inherently unfair. It is not a level playing field for this year. It is a reward for a prior achievement that strongly suggests you're the best guy, and you now have to prove it again but you get the benefit of some advantages. I think it's a good system (maybe a tweak here and there could help) but it is NOT literally fair to all.

Is seeding fair?  

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2 minutes ago, jmachinder said:

Is seeding fair?  

Depends on how it's done. It is unfair for that specific tournament, I suppose, but if it's done a la NCAAs, where everyone starts from a clean slate in the beginning of the season to build up for a seeded finale, sure it is.

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3 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

They are not mutually exclusive in theory, of course, but the system currently is NOT fair, by definition. Granting any competitor special privileges based on last year's achievements is inherently unfair. It is not a level playing field for this year. It is a reward for a prior achievement that strongly suggests you're the best guy, and you now have to prove it again but you get the benefit of some advantages. I think it's a good system (maybe a tweak here and there could help) but it is NOT literally fair to all.

Of course it's fair.  Every competitor is eligible to be next years returning world medalist.  It just means that the trials process isnt limited to one season.  Dake actually beat Dieringer last year, so he had the same chance as Dake.  That is fair.

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There's a mismatch of intellects here...I mean you're not going to have much luck making your dog understand calculus...but if you pet him on the head aren't you controlling him spiritually.

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Listening to FRL yesterday, Koll apparently wasn't exaggerating when he claimed USAW's star witness made their case for them!

Seems USAW flew the head UWW official over to the states, and put him on the stand without bothering to confirm his position.  Supposedly, when asked something to the effect of, "Would you have accepted Zain's challenge?", he basically said, "Of course not."

After he made their case for them, plaintiffs chose not to cross.

I assumed Koll was embellishing at least a bit, but he may have actually undersold the impact, and it's worth noting that law school students don't make that kind of mistake in 2nd year mock trials.

If tbert can acquire standing, he should sue the USAW lawyers for malpractice.

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9 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

.....no one knows what you are talking about

Never underestimate the intelligence of intelligence. We are a self limiting species, physically, and mentally.
 

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1 hour ago, whaletail said:

Listening to FRL yesterday, Koll apparently wasn't exaggerating when he claimed USAW's star witness made their case for them!

Seems USAW flew the head UWW official over to the states, and put him on the stand without bothering to confirm his position.  Supposedly, when asked something to the effect of, "Would you have accepted Zain's challenge?", he basically said, "Of course not."

After he made their case for them, plaintiffs chose not to cross.

I assumed Koll was embellishing at least a bit, but he may have actually undersold the impact, and it's worth noting that law school students don't make that kind of mistake in 2nd year mock trials.

If tbert can acquire standing, he should sue the USAW lawyers for malpractice.

Why would I want to do that?  Dont really understand law, lawyers, arbitrators judges, politicians and even ignorant posters.....  and dont really dont care to.   

Got to hand it to Koll though,  you dont need the better wrestler if you have a greasier lawyer.

 

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13 minutes ago, tbert said:

  

Got to hand it to Koll though,  you dont need the better wrestler if you have a greasier lawyer.

 

got to hand it to carl... you don't need the better wrestler if you have a yolo brick and incompetent officials...

you can paint it anyway your jingoism compells you to, but, yanni is the one who got screwed in that match... 

if you are incapable of understanding that then all you need to do is reference to the ruling... 

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23 minutes ago, LJB said:

got to hand it to carl... you don't need the better wrestler if you have a yolo brick and incompetent officials...

you can paint it anyway your jingoism compells you to, but, yanni is the one who got screwed in that match... 

if you are incapable of understanding that then all you need to do is reference to the ruling... 

Do you think If Zain comes out and techs Yianni 10-0 in 30 seconds that u might just spontaneously combust? I get disagreeing with a call , but  you seem to have something personal against Cael or psu...bubba Jenkins is that you ?

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17 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Do you think If Zain comes out and techs Yianni 10-0 in 30 seconds that u might just spontaneously combust? I get disagreeing with a call , but  you seem to have something personal against Cael or psu...bubba Jenkins is that you ?

He apparently hates successful programs.  

43 minutes ago, LJB said:

got to hand it to carl... you don't need the better wrestler if you have a yolo brick and incompetent officials...

you can paint it anyway your jingoism compells you to, but, yanni is the one who got screwed in that match... 

if you are incapable of understanding that then all you need to do is reference to the ruling... 

Why would I reference a ruling when I have  clueless posters explaining it to me ?

 

Edited by tbert

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15 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Do you think If Zain comes out and techs Yianni 10-0 in 30 seconds that u might just spontaneously combust? I get disagreeing with a call , but  you seem to have something personal against Cael or psu...bubba Jenkins is that you ?

personal against carl?

this is an internet parlor trick... i don't fall for those...

if zain techs yanni in 30 seconds without the interference of incompetent officials then so be it... 

but, literally no one on this planet sees that as a possibility... if he had any par terre at all maybe, but, like most of our guys, zain wasted his best years learning how not to wrestle...

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1 hour ago, tbert said:

Got to hand it to Koll though,  you dont need the better wrestler if you have a greasier lawyer.

 

I really do not understand the extreme hatred for Koll by some people, or Cael Sanderson. Both have done amazing things as wrestlers and coaches. Both have found a level of success never before seen by their programs. Both have positively impacted more young men than most of us could ever dream of.

This current situation really comes down to both coaches did what they felt was necessary to protect their wrestlers. 

The call was made on the mat. The correct scoring is debatable but the call was made and the score reflected that on the scoreboard. Should the score have changed? I have yet to see a definitive answer on whether or not 2-2 was even allowed. If it wasn't, a protocol is to be followed, which wasn't. Regardless, there is a rule in place for a challenge, the rule wasn't followed. All of these procedures and rules are put in place to make sure that the correct scoring occurs and the wrestlers know the score during the match.

Cael decided to challenge the score on the scoreboard at the end of the match. I guess he didn't like the outcome and chose to try and get it changed, which I do not blame him for at all! Due to a complete disregard for the rules and procedures clearly outlined in the rule book (not the guideline book as some would suggest), he did get the outcome changed. 

At this point, Koll decided to follow the procedures in place to protect his wrestler because he did not like the how the outcome of the match was changed after the fact. So he followed the procedure and got the match thrown out. Really, the match should have been awarded to Yianni but I suppose a compromise was reached.

The claim is being made that Zain is the better wrestler. Sure, you can argue that but it is not material fact. It also would not be a fact to say Yianni is a better wrestler than Zain.

Yianni is not yet the world team rep. He has to win 2 matches in a row to earn that spot. This process just got him the right to try and win the spot, which he should have considering the miserable handling of match 2. 

If Zain is clearly the better wrestler, he will know doubt win at least 1 of the 2 matches. Especially since they seem to go back and forth with adjustments and Yianni dominated the last match. This process is still heavily to Zain's advantage.

If Zain wins the first match, he is the rep.

If Yianni wins the first match, they will wrestle again.

If Zain wins the 2nd match, you will hear complaints that the first match should have been the deciding factor and Yianni got screwed. Not from me, but it will get said.

If Yianni wins the 2nd match, it will be a very clear indication of who the better wrestler is right now. Maybe he is just better, maybe the injury is the reason or any other number of factors, but right now it should be a clear indication. Yianni will have won the last 3 matches (Dogu and 2 in a row) which could be argued 4 (2nd match at WTT). People will argue that Zain got screwed.

Either way, this at least removes SOME of the doubt as to who should be representing USA. BUT, it will not stop the bickering.

I just wish people would stop attacking Koll or Cael for doing their job as Coaches. They are both near top of the best coaches list (Cael is AT the top & Koll hasn't won a title, I know). Both of them do amazing things for their wrestlers, their programs and the sport of wrestling. This situation changes none of that!

I have strong connections to all parties involved (Penn State, Cornell, Zain & Yianni). I am not rooting for either wrestler to win or lose. Both are great young men from great families, members of great programs and led by great coaches. I just want to see a process that is as fair as it can be. Match 2 at the WTT was extremely unfair to Yianni and I would say the exact same thing if the roles were reversed.

This outcome is about as fair a compromise as one could imagine.

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

personal against carl?

this is an internet parlor trick... i don't fall for those...

if zain techs yanni in 30 seconds without the interference of incompetent officials then so be it... 

but, literally no one on this planet sees that as a possibility... if he had any par terre at all maybe, but, like most of our guys, zain wasted his best years learning how not to wrestle...

You did fall for it, case closed, its personal, another one jealous of PSU dominance.

Keep watching greco,  you may be able to keep up with all the excitement.

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15 minutes ago, Savage74 said:

They are both near top of the best coaches list (Cael is AT the top & Koll hasn't won a title, I know). Both of them do amazing things for their wrestlers, their programs and the sport of wrestling. This situation changes none of that!

This means nothing to some people, some who in fact represent themselves as true fans of the sport.  The only thing some people care about is why they have a particular dislike for a particular person, and with that there can be nothing good about them.

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35 minutes ago, tbert said:

You did fall for it, case closed, its personal, another one jealous of PSU dominance.

Keep watching greco,  you may be able to keep up with all the excitement.

i could not possibly care less about anyone's perceived dominance in the **** style...

i only care about individual accomplishment and excellence...

not teams...

group (and ultimately mob) mentality disgusts me...

but keep trying, sparky...

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