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Ringer had absolutely zero for Dake

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22 hours ago, BigTimeFan said:

So what weight will Dake go for the Olympic trials ? I think he’s understood for 86kg and have trouble thinking he is too big for the cut to 74kg. If he does go 74kg - which I think he should - does anyone think he can finally dethrone JB? I’ve said a few times before that Dave Schultz deliberately didn’t wrestle Kemp for a  period of time, even going up a weight for the 1982 worlds, just to reboot vs Kemp. Kemp took off ‘83 and then Schultz finally beat Kemp. Of note was the the patter was simply. Schultz was mostly (if not always) losing to Kemp. Schultz took a world bronze up a weight in 1982 and then won the worlds in 1983 when Kemp sat out. So by 1984 Schultz vs Kemp was world champ vs world champ. 

Dake's almost certainly dropping to 74 next year, and if he hadn't been injured last December, might well have gone down this year.  Although he'd obviously have had to beat JB first, a medal would have advanced him to the Trials final next year, which would have been a huge advantage.

Regardless, I think it's pretty obvious he can beat JB next year; whether he will is another matter entirely.  A medal this year will at least advance him automatically to the Trials semis, where he'll probably have to beat Imar to meet a fresh, rested JB in the finals.

Although I support protecting medalists conceptually, if both JB and Dake medal as expected, I think they should both be advanced to the semis (obviously on opposite sides of the bracket), with neither given a further advantage.  Imagine the controversy if Dake wins his second gold, but JB only wins bronze, yet still sits in the Trials finals.  Of course. JB's 2019 Worlds bracket will be significantly more competitive than Dake's, but protecting a bronze medalist over a World Champion doesn't seem reasonable.

I'm actually pretty surprised USAW didn't foresee that potential outcome, and revise the rules accordingly.

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I think this is "less" about Ringer not having an answer for Dake, and MORE about how Dake had an answer for Ringer.  

Here's what I'm seeing:

* Ringer is a bonafide Top 5-in-world wrestler.

* Dake is the defending World Champion

* Each wrestler has their own "style"

* Ringer is incredibly "one-dimensional" in terms of his go-to takedowns, yet, this one-dimension can rarely be stopped by anyone, consistently.  This is what makes him just so darn good.

* Dake, the last time they wrestled, he wrestled a completely different strategy.  Different ties, different stance, different angles, etc. 

In other words, Ringer was prepared for the Dake that he has consistently seen, and Dake made a massive stylistic change, to specifically and singularly nullify Ringer's "game".  Given that "Dake went to Ringer's world", and literally locked horns with the best guy on the planet/weight at this respective style, and THEN defeated him, at his own game (per se), just goes to show the "genius" of Dake, from both a cerebral and physical perspective.  

I think, over time, folks will look back at this match, and see a bit more of what i just described, in how Dake used a different approach/style (abnormal for him), and even this this abnormalcy, was still able to defeat a Top 5 in World level of wrestler.  

Amazing. 

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10 minutes ago, whaletail said:

  Of course. JB's 2019 Worlds bracket will be significantly more competitive than Dake's. 

I'm actually pretty surprised USAW didn't foresee that potential outcome, and revise the rules accordingly.

That’s the main point there, and I think has to be factored in. I’m sure with the 74-97 gauntlet we have, it wasn’t an oversight. You’re coming to my (Olympic) weight class. Sort it out and who’s left has to go through me. I think the semi/final bye set up is reasonable. 

Edited by Lurker

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2 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

I think this is "less" about Ringer not having an answer for Dake, and MORE about how Dake had an answer for Ringer.  

Here's what I'm seeing:

* Ringer is a bonafide Top 5-in-world wrestler.

* Dake is the defending World Champion

* Each wrestler has their own "style"

* Ringer is incredibly "one-dimensional" in terms of his go-to takedowns, yet, this one-dimension can rarely be stopped by anyone, consistently.  This is what makes him just so darn good.

* Dake, the last time they wrestled, he wrestled a completely different strategy.  Different ties, different stance, different angles, etc. 

In other words, Ringer was prepared for the Dake that he has consistently seen, and Dake made a massive stylistic change, to specifically and singularly nullify Ringer's "game".  Given that "Dake went to Ringer's world", and literally locked horns with the best guy on the planet/weight at this respective style, and THEN defeated him, at his own game (per se), just goes to show the "genius" of Dake, from both a cerebral and physical perspective.  

I think, over time, folks will look back at this match, and see a bit more of what i just described, in how Dake used a different approach/style (abnormal for him), and even this this abnormalcy, was still able to defeat a Top 5 in World level of wrestler.  

Amazing. 

Quotation marks typically don't mean what you think they mean.

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11 minutes ago, whaletail said:

Dake's almost certainly dropping to 74 next year, and if he hadn't been injured last December, might well have gone down this year.  Although he'd obviously have had to beat JB first, a medal would have advanced him to the Trials final next year, which would have been a huge advantage.

Regardless, I think it's pretty obvious he can beat JB next year; whether he will is another matter entirely.  A medal this year will at least advance him automatically to the Trials semis, where he'll probably have to beat Imar to meet a fresh, rested JB in the finals.

Although I support protecting medalists conceptually, if both JB and Dake medal as expected, I think they should both be advanced to the semis (obviously on opposite sides of the bracket), with neither given a further advantage.  Imagine the controversy if Dake wins his second gold, but JB only wins bronze, yet still sits in the Trials finals.  Of course. JB's 2019 Worlds bracket will be significantly more competitive than Dake's, but protecting a bronze medalist over a World Champion doesn't seem reasonable.

I'm actually pretty surprised USAW didn't foresee that potential outcome, and revise the rules accordingly.

Dake will be a different wrestler if he drops 11 pounds so he doesnt get any perks from accomplishments in a different weight class.  If JB 'just' wins bronze, he qualifies the weight and USAW happy but not overjoyed.

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Dake dictated the match with movement and stronger ties. His strategy appeared to be to suck Dieringer in, cut him off, and win the ties. He worked that strategy expertly and made Dieringer look one-dimensional. Dieringer was reacting to Dake's movement and this prevented Dieringer from ever getting Dake in a position where Dieringer could score. Dieringer needed to get Dake to move where Dieringer wanted, but that just didn't happen.

My no-so-serious take is sung to the tune of Sir Robin's minstrel from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Brave Sir Kyle ran away

Bravely ran away, away

When Ringer reared his curly head

Sir Kyle moved his feet and fled

Yes, brave Sir Kyle turned about

And gallantly he pushed him out

 

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6 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Thank you Mr. Grammar Policeman Sir... duly noted.

Not trying to be a jerk--it's just that quotations around a single word usually indicate that the writer disagrees with that word.  I don't think your intention was to be sarcastic when calling Dake a "genius."  That's all. 

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15 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Not trying to be a jerk--it's just that quotations around a single word usually indicate that the writer disagrees with that word.  I don't think your intention was to be sarcastic when calling Dake a "genius."  That's all. 

i use quotation marks "gratuitously".  Sometimes, it's "too much".  I get it. 

But no... I DO view Dake as a genius, and there was no sarcasm whatsoever.  His ability to morph his style to meet, and subsequently beat, the best in the world, is truly astounding.  It's different than Kyle Snyder, or Taylor, or Cox.  They wrestle their game and style, and blow through people.  Dake altered his style, one that he may not have been comfortable with (since it's not normal), and bam, still claims victory.  

I view what Dake just did to be quite astonishing actually.  

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On 8/17/2019 at 2:54 PM, Perry said:

He looked good in the last minute of match 2, but needed to bring that out much earlier if he wanted a chance

Dake was gassed. That’s why. 

Dake doesn’t typically gas like that but he isn’t quite in world shape yet. He has a few weeks. 

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2 hours ago, whaletail said:

Dake's almost certainly dropping to 74 next year, and if he hadn't been injured last December, might well have gone down this year.  Although he'd obviously have had to beat JB first, a medal would have advanced him to the Trials final next year, which would have been a huge advantage.

Regardless, I think it's pretty obvious he can beat JB next year; whether he will is another matter entirely.  A medal this year will at least advance him automatically to the Trials semis, where he'll probably have to beat Imar to meet a fresh, rested JB in the finals.

Although I support protecting medalists conceptually, if both JB and Dake medal as expected, I think they should both be advanced to the semis (obviously on opposite sides of the bracket), with neither given a further advantage.  Imagine the controversy if Dake wins his second gold, but JB only wins bronze, yet still sits in the Trials finals.  Of course. JB's 2019 Worlds bracket will be significantly more competitive than Dake's, but protecting a bronze medalist over a World Champion doesn't seem reasonable.

I'm actually pretty surprised USAW didn't foresee that potential outcome, and revise the rules accordingly.

There shouldn’t be any controversy. Weights matter. Dake winning 79kg in what appears to be a very weak field vs JB winning a bronze at 74kg in the most stacked weight makes a difference. So does simply wrestling at the weight. 

Dake May be more effective at 79 than 74. Guys often have different results when they drop. While you and I know Dake can make 74 and perform, the rules shouldn’t allow for exceptions like that. 

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4 hours ago, Mat Rat said:

Kyle’s constant movement and strong side under-hooks certainly were effective against Dieringer. Those that think it was boring simply do not understand freestyle or the need to adjust based on the style matchups relative to your opponent. Naturally you need the athleticism to execute the plan and Kyle is on another level with that. 

Kyle/Rob are clearly the best at that and they proved it once again. It was never more apparent than last year in Budapest.

 

I agree with what I take to be the basic point here -- that Dake is a unique strategist/tactician with extraordinary athleticism.  

Don't agree with the posts that classified those who opined that the matches were not exciting as negative or ignorant fans. 

There was relatively little action for a modern freestyle match.  Dake himself in the first 90 seconds of his (engaging and intelligent) post match interview said, three times basically unprompted, that it wasn't pretty. 

Someone who thought the matches were kind of boring isn't saying that Koll, Dake, and Cornell University should be condemned to damnation and that the sport is terrible; they're just saying that matches with more attacks are generally more entertaining to watch.

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9 minutes ago, LJB said:

scoring does not equate to excitement...

i feel sorry for those who think it does...

i typically point them towards basketball... seems a better fit for them...

i.e. Paulson vs Hall III

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

i.e. Paulson vs Hall III

exactly... and we could add many more examples of low scoring action filled, exciting matches...

we could also go the flip side... point to colon and garrett matches that were ridiculously high scoring and just the sloppiest wrestling ever... absolutely horrible wrestling...

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

exactly... and we could add many more examples of low scoring action filled, exciting matches...

we could also go the flip side... point to colon and garrett matches that were ridiculously high scoring and just the sloppiest wrestling ever... absolutely horrible wrestling...

Best high school match I ever saw was a state final, returning state champ vs defending state champ.  2-1 in double OT. 

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i literally can not think of one high scoring match that i would consider good wrestling... everytime there are a bunch of points put on the board it is because it is an total ass whipping, sloppy wrestling by both competitors, or a basketball game...

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56 minutes ago, LJB said:

i literally can not think of one high scoring match that i would consider good wrestling... everytime there are a bunch of points put on the board it is because it is an total ass whipping, sloppy wrestling by both competitors, or a basketball game...

Generally I agree, but there have been some. McIIravy/Abas '93 NCAA final, think it was 14-13. A few others, but yes, two elite guys will be low scoring.

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4 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Dake will be a different wrestler if he drops 11 pounds so he doesnt get any perks from accomplishments in a different weight class.  If JB 'just' wins bronze, he qualifies the weight and USAW happy but not overjoyed.

He gets a bye to the semis, but in situations where you have two top guys at a weight, disadvantaging one of them doesn't make sense.  Especially if you're looking for the best rep, but neither if you're rewarding past performance.

I understand what you mean about the 11 pounds, but assuming diminished performance, or even the possibly of that seems unnecessarily speculative, and in Dake's case, a complete non-issue.

Nor am I sure how USAW's happiness about qualifying the weight is relevant.  Even if the bye is partially a reward, I've always understood it to be mostly about sending the best rep, and forcing Dake to go through Imar the same day will probably diminish his performance against JB.  Shouldn't both be at their best?

I'm probably going to start a thread about this, as I'm interested in the community's thoughts, and I'm sure there aspects I haven't thought about.

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i'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say derienger was not as much of a lock for winning the gold as people were making it out to be

I mean, you don't think the internationals would of scouted him and employed a similar gameplan at some point ?

Derienger has major weakness in his game, and the internationals were going to expose it. 

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As far as the Olympic trials byes, some of this might play itself out at Worlds as far as who wins medals and who doesn’t. We’ll see what happens but this is a fascinating topic with these possible scenarios..                         

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