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Ringer had absolutely zero for Dake

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1 minute ago, 2td3nf said:

As far as the Olympic trials byes, some of this might play itself out at Worlds as far as who wins medals and who doesn’t. We’ll see what happens but this is a fascinating topic with these possible scenarios..                         

And is a real good reason for Taylor not to disclose his injury too soon.  Speculation of course but say Ringer moved up and placed at worlds, could have an advantage.  Probably a moot point if Cox goes down.

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

scoring does not equate to excitement...

i feel sorry for those who think it does...

i typically point them towards basketball... seems a better fit for them...

I totally get what you’re saying, but still, if you don’t score you don’t win. Also, I might be in the minority, but as an example, I thought the Fix Suriano marathon match was extremely boring and way too long. 

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Dake's almost certainly dropping to 74 next year, and if he hadn't been injured last December, might well have gone down this year.  Although he'd obviously have had to beat JB first, a medal would have advanced him to the Trials final next year, which would have been a huge advantage.
Regardless, I think it's pretty obvious he can beat JB next year; whether he will is another matter entirely.  A medal this year will at least advance him automatically to the Trials semis, where he'll probably have to beat Imar to meet a fresh, rested JB in the finals.
Although I support protecting medalists conceptually, if both JB and Dake medal as expected, I think they should both be advanced to the semis (obviously on opposite sides of the bracket), with neither given a further advantage.  Imagine the controversy if Dake wins his second gold, but JB only wins bronze, yet still sits in the Trials finals.  Of course. JB's 2019 Worlds bracket will be significantly more competitive than Dake's, but protecting a bronze medalist over a World Champion doesn't seem reasonable.
I'm actually pretty surprised USAW didn't foresee that potential outcome, and revise the rules accordingly.

Good problem to have


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3 hours ago, tbert said:

And is a real good reason for Taylor not to disclose his injury too soon.  Speculation of course but say Ringer moved up and placed at worlds, could have an advantage.  Probably a moot point if Cox goes down.

Agreed.

Even if Downey somehow medals, Taylor would much rather have him waiting in the Trials finals than Ringer, or even Bo, etc.

Very well played by DT, but in my view, no different than Dake exploiting the delay process as much as he did.

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Agreed.
Even if Downey somehow medals, Taylor would much rather have him waiting in the Trials finals than Ringer, or even Bo, etc.
Very well played by DT, but in my view, no different than Dake exploiting the delay process as much as he did.
Yeah , but it's "non patriotic" for Taylor. lol

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7 hours ago, 2td3nf said:

As far as the Olympic trials byes, some of this might play itself out at Worlds as far as who wins medals and who doesn’t. We’ll see what happens but this is a fascinating topic with these possible scenarios..                         

79 is such an awful weight, I honestly think he'd probably win gold, and without much difficulty, wrestling just as he did on Saturday.

Naturally, I assume he'd actually get some attacks in, so it wouldn't look the same, but I don't think he would've had to make any adjustments.

At 86 next summer, however, I doubt he'll fare as well.  I'm not in the DT pins him camp, but I don't seeing Dieringer beating him or Cox.  Cox is at least as difficult to score on as Dake, and Taylor's offense more than makes up for any defensive holes.

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11 hours ago, LJB said:

scoring does not equate to excitement...

i feel sorry for those who think it does...

i typically point them towards basketball... seems a better fit for them...

I don't think that folks who found the Saturday matches less than exciting were equating scoring with excitement, but rather action and excitement with excitement. 

For instance, I find watching this 1-0 match to be riveting.

I did not find Saturday to be riveting. I found myself very impressed with Kyle Dake for the umpteenth time, but I didn't find 12 minutes with so few shots or other action to be exciting. 

It was more exciting than watching almost any basketball game, although the notion that it would be better that people who devote hundreds of hours a year to watching wrestling, who also who found themselves less than fully engaged with this match (a match that Dake himself repeatedly volunteered wasn't pretty) are a better fit watching a bunch of overgrown 7 footers shot put 25 foot jump shots simply because the score totals over 200 points isn't a real argument.  

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13 hours ago, drag it said:

I don't think that folks who found the Saturday matches less than exciting were equating scoring with excitement, but rather action and excitement with excitement. 

For instance, I find watching this 1-0 match to be riveting.

I did not find Saturday to be riveting. I found myself very impressed with Kyle Dake for the umpteenth time, but I didn't find 12 minutes with so few shots or other action to be exciting. 

It was more exciting than watching almost any basketball game, although the notion that it would be better that people who devote hundreds of hours a year to watching wrestling, who also who found themselves less than fully engaged with this match (a match that Dake himself repeatedly volunteered wasn't pretty) are a better fit watching a bunch of overgrown 7 footers shot put 25 foot jump shots simply because the score totals over 200 points isn't a real argument.  

Interesting how control calls have changed over time.  If that match were officiated today, Brands would have had an easy 2 at 7:31 when he was behind Cross's arms with his left leg laced.

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Any interviews of Ringer?  Curious on his thoughts.  All credit to Kyle since he prevented Ringer from firing?  Or does he regret not going for it a bit more?  Or ....

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On 8/19/2019 at 8:53 AM, Plasmodium said:

Good stuff.  Folks are ignorant if they thought that was boring.

This.  I was on the edge of my seat the entire time.  It was a war in both matches and in every exchange, Dake won.  It was impressive just how little Ringer had to offer.

It goes to demonstrate just how good Dake is right now, not how bad Ringer is.  Let's not forget that he has proven he is the #2 in the world(Ghadzi is hurt so today Ringer would beat him).  Let's not also forget that he would also beat Taylor today. Taylor is hurt as well.

I wish USA Wrestling would do what is best for the team and allow him to wrestle Downey for the 86kg spot.  Taylor waiting made it so some 79 and 92 guys did not go 86 when they could have.  It would have been the easiest path to a spot, with our only hammer out.

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On 8/19/2019 at 1:28 PM, LJB said:

i literally can not think of one high scoring match that i would consider good wrestling... everytime there are a bunch of points put on the board it is because it is an total ass whipping, sloppy wrestling by both competitors, or a basketball game...

I can, but I cannot think who it was or where it was.  It was our senior level and I want to believe it was one of our 61kg matches.

I cannot recall, but I do generally have the same idea/approach that high scoring are sloppy, annoying and just all around not fun.

The match ended something like 18-9 or 20-11, maybe even 19-9(tech).  Close to a tech or as close as can be.  Wrestler A defeated Wrestler B, but Wrestler B jumped out to a 9-0 lead on slop.

Wrestler A then turned it on and picked him apart little by little with pristine execution and persistence.  Wrestler B defended well, but Wrestle A was just that much better and had to dig himself out of a hole and did so, yet Wrestler B didn't give him ANYTHING.  Wrestler A earned every bit of it and Wrestler B defended everything he could while both gave it their all.

I wish I could recall who even one of them was, but I was thoroughly enjoyed after watching him come back.  It was a dogfight and he was down quick and early.

Edited by nhs67
Added more to it...

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27 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I wish USA Wrestling would do what is best for the team and allow him to wrestle Downey for the 86kg spot.  Taylor waiting made it so some 79 and 92 guys did not go 86 when they could have.  It would have been the easiest path to a spot, with our only hammer out.

ringer made his choice... he thought his best chance for a team was at 79... 

downey made his choice as well regardless of who was at the weight...

to even suggest someone who earned their spot should have to wrestle again just because he is not a fan favorite goes against every principle that wrestling is supposed to stand for...

 

not that it matters, it is only free... not like it is somehting really important like greco...

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3 hours ago, LJB said:

ringer made his choice... he thought his best chance for a team was at 79... 

downey made his choice as well regardless of who was at the weight...

to even suggest someone who earned their spot should have to wrestle again just because he is not a fan favorite goes against every principle that wrestling is supposed to stand for...

 

not that it matters, it is only free... not like it is somehting really important like greco...

You're ignoring every point most people are trying to make.

It isn't about fan favorite. It I'd about the BEST we can put out as far as our team.

Hidlay arguably has done better internationally this season than he has, and he is our Junior rep, and just up this spring from 174lbs to 189lbs.

To baffle at the concept that Ringer is better and a better option for us at worlds is stupid. You've been round these parts a good while. You aren't stupid. Don't say stupid things.

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40 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

You're ignoring every point most people are trying to make.

It isn't about fan favorite. It I'd about the BEST we can put out as far as our team.

Hidlay arguably has done better internationally this season than he has, and he is our Junior rep, and just up this spring from 174lbs to 189lbs.

To baffle at the concept that Ringer is better and a better option for us at worlds is stupid. You've been round these parts a good while. You aren't stupid. Don't say stupid things.

i am not ignoring it... i just think it is utter bull****...

downey earned his spot through merit... he showed up at his chosen weight and beat every other wrestler who made it to the mat...

to even suggest that is not good enough just because someone else chose to not man up and show up at that weight when scheduled is bull****...

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13 minutes ago, LJB said:

i am not ignoring it... i just think it is utter bull****...

downey earned his spot through merit... he showed up at his chosen weight and beat every other wrestler who made it to the mat...

to even suggest that is not good enough just because someone else chose to not man up and show up at that weight when scheduled is bull****...

Boys... Boys... you're arguing semantics... 

One wants whats best for the team... The other wants to stick to the rules so that they apply to everyone equally... neither are really incorrect, but neither are really right either.

However... Ringer would probably beat Downey, regardless, and it would be better for Team USA.  But... rules are rules, and they both chose their paths.  

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1 minute ago, treep2000 said:

Boys... Boys... you're arguing semantics... 

One wants whats best for the team... The other wants to stick to the rules so that they apply to everyone equally... neither are really incorrect, but neither are really right either.

However... Ringer would probably beat Downey, regardless, and it would be better for Team USA.  But... rules are rules, and they both chose their paths.  

it is only an assumption that ringer beats downey... he didn't man up and prove whether he could or not... he chose to get handled by dake at 79 instead... 

choosing to ignore a clearly outlined process just because you don't like the results is the response of a child... 

 

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This Ringer vs Downey or Ringer replacing Downey is all hypothetical, obviously. Downey won the spot and has the spot. 

But I don't know, did they ever wrestle each other? Did Ringer ever beat Downey? Along the same lines, did Ringer ever beat Heflin?

I don't think it's a slam dunk that Ringer could beat Downey right now at 86kg.

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Just now, 2td3nf said:

This Ringer vs Downey or Ringer replacing Downey is all hypothetical, obviously. Downey won the spot and has the spot. 

But I don't know, did they ever wrestle each other? Did Ringer ever beat Downey? Along the same lines, did Ringer ever beat Heflin?

I don't think it's a slam dunk that Ringer could beat Downey right now at 86kg.

Downey wouldn't beat Hidlay right now.

Ringer would bulk-smash him.

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I finally saw the matches yesterday and was surprised by how much action took place, yet no takedowns.  It was Dake with all the action, Ringer had no chance and looked inept out there.  Except for the fact he didn't get taken down.  But he looked the junior to Dake for sure.  Dake is that much better.  Kid Dynamite continues to surprise with how good he really is. 

mspart

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