Looking back, was Dake really that great?

[TBar1977 3,317]

19 minutes ago, fiveontwo said:

he was.  but i wish he ended his college career the way he started it.  as a freshman he was slamming everyone and scoring then he clammed up his JR and SR year. 

He didn't really slam Reece Humphrey his freshman year, and he never even had to face #1 seed Darrion Caldwell his soph year. when Caldwell got hurt in round 1.

[klehner 204]

31 minutes ago, fiveontwo said:

he was.  but i wish he ended his college career the way he started it.  as a freshman he was slamming everyone and scoring then he clammed up his JR and SR year. 

Never let facts get in the way of what you think is a good story.

2010:  34-2, 7 falls, 14 bonus

2011:  31-2, 7 falls, 20 bonus

2012:  35-0, 12 falls, 21 bonus

2013:  37-0, 18 falls, 28 bonus (8 pins in the first period; talk about clamming up!)

So his "clammed up" junior and senior years shows more than double the pins from his freshman/sophomore years, and nearly half again as many total bonus wins.

Examples:  his senior year at CKLV, he had two pins and two majors (only a 6-0 decision in the final).   At Southern Scuffle, he had two pins, two majors, and a 3-2 decision
over some unknown guy in the final.  At EIWA, he had two falls and two majors and a tech fall.

Where did you get your idea from, anyway?

[TBar1977 3,317]

Dake clearly got better as his college career unfolded. His progression looks almost linear, meaning continually improving. 

Edited August 22 by TBar1977

[russelscout 1,032]

1 hour ago, klehner said:

Where did you get your idea from, anyway?

I think the narrative at the time was that Dake didn't do much and leaned heavily on his elite riding ability, despite tremendous talent. This really wasnt the case, but I think it comes from two places. 

1. His sophomore and junior NCAA finals were very reliant on the ride. More specifically his junior year Dake got a lot of crap from Iowa fans for just holding St. John down and they wanted stall calls. Was that deserved maybe? Would it have mattered? Absolutely not. Dake went out and took St. John down right away. Dake wins it 10 out of 10 times.

2. He was constantly being compared to Taylor who was a bonus machine. By comparison, his stats dont look as dominant or are even a bit underwhelming. In a vacuum he is still elite.

Edited August 22 by russelscout

[red blades 130]

2 hours ago, russelscout said:

2. He was constantly being compared to Taylor who was a bonus machine. By comparison, his stats dont look as dominant or are even a bit underwhelming. 

David Taylor, 37-1 career falls; Dake, 44-0.  Just sayin...

[ugarte 162]

2 hours ago, red blades said:

David Taylor, 37-1 career falls; Dake, 44-0.  Just sayin...

i don't know that i want to compare the Ivies or the NYS Championships to the bottom of Penn State's schedule so I'll just stick to the H2H on Dake - Taylor 

[hammerlockthree 1,552]

12 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Dake clearly got better as his college career unfolded. His progression looks almost linear, meaning continually improving. 

omg your posts are boring and empty 

[drag it 138]

Not that great. Better.

1.  4x champ. One of four ever.

2. NO REDSHIRT 4x champ. Only one ever. Can't be emphasized enough. 

3. Moved up on purpose to wrestle the defending and future Hodge winner and future world champ. Beat him three times in three different kinds of matches, twice from behind. 

4. Beat two Iowa and two Penn State guys in the finals. Those four were:

Guy who won Hodge year before and year after. 

Guy who was undefeated champ the year after and future Olympian. Dake put a literally humiliating beating on him with a shocking 6 minutes plus of riding time.

Guy who was champ the next year. 

Guy who in future lost OT in finals and lost OT in semis to champ in one of most controversial matches ever.

5. Undefeated last two years. NCAAs those years:

Jr. year: 1st pd fall, 1st pd fall, 2d pd fall, 4-0, 4-1

Sr. year:  First four matches: 29-0. Final vs 2x Hodge winner (who had pinned way to finals with three in first period and won in 3:25), 5-4 with late stalling point, opponent took off ankle bands with time still on clock. 

6. Did all this while dealing with going to class and getting good grades at Ivy League college, which I guarantee you was a factor in his (few) losses.

Edited August 26 by drag it

[nhs67 374]

17 hours ago, ugarte said:

i don't know that i want to compare the Ivies or the NYS Championships to the bottom of Penn State's schedule so I'll just stick to the H2H on Dake - Taylor 

Either way, the raw data suggests Dake as well as the H2H.

[vsnej 173]

Maybe this thread should be renamed...

"Looking back, yes Burroughs was really that great!"
 

[fiveontwo 12]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:37 AM, klehner said:

Never let facts get in the way of what you think is a good story.

2010:  34-2, 7 falls, 14 bonus

2011:  31-2, 7 falls, 20 bonus

2012:  35-0, 12 falls, 21 bonus

2013:  37-0, 18 falls, 28 bonus (8 pins in the first period; talk about clamming up!)

So his "clammed up" junior and senior years shows more than double the pins from his freshman/sophomore years, and nearly half again as many total bonus wins.

Examples:  his senior year at CKLV, he had two pins and two majors (only a 6-0 decision in the final).   At Southern Scuffle, he had two pins, two majors, and a 3-2 decision
over some unknown guy in the final.  At EIWA, he had two falls and two majors and a tech fall.

Where did you get your idea from, anyway?

i guess i miss remembered.  or just some of the matches i saw against good competition

[Alwayswrestling 149]

Yes

[WillieBoy 638]

Dake surprised us as a Freshman.

Sophmore - he won even as a number figured a Sophomore Slump would get him.

Junior - up another weight class and the bigger boys were waiting and sure he would go down. He still won.

Senior - beat the big stud for the Title.

He was very good and lucky the injuries that have plagued him after graduation didn't kill one of his years of Collegiate competition.

I don't think he has ever own a fantasy match - think even DelFino and Cinnabutt beat him in fantasy matches. Real matches... a whole 'nother world.

[whaletail 106]

On 8/21/2019 at 5:48 PM, Boompa said:

I still don't understand why people were picking Ringer last weekend.  Dake is that great that it takes arguably the greatest to beat him (Burroughs).

I just don't get it.  You can see it in his wrestling even though he is rarely dynamic.  I guess when it comes down to it, very few people who follow the sport actually truely knows it.

Kind of like Wade Boggs stepping on egg shells with his lead foot and winning batting titles I guess.

Personally, I just wasn't sure if he was 100%, and as good as Dake is, I'm not sure he'd have beaten him injured.  

Rarely so happy to be proved wrong (about the outcome, and the injury)!

[whaletail 106]

On 8/21/2019 at 6:24 PM, HokieHWT said:

Henson, Brands, Angle....ok i can't think of any more.

You think all those you mentioned had better NCAA careers than Taylor?  He was a 2x Hodge winner, and if anything, is spoken about with the sort of reverence and respect reserved for 4 timers.

[HokieHWT 308]

6 hours ago, whaletail said:

You think all those you mentioned had better NCAA careers than Taylor?  He was a 2x Hodge winner, and if anything, is spoken about with the sort of reverence and respect reserved for 4 timers.

Yes, those three are MUCH better wrestlers than Taylor. How many Olympic medals does he have?

[drag it 138]

9 hours ago, HokieHWT said:

Yes, those three are MUCH better wrestlers than Taylor. How many Olympic medals does he have?

To be fair, since the question was "much better NCAA careers than Taylor," I'd say no to those three.  He had the same 2 titles as them (Terry being the Brands at issue).  He was a 4x finalist, had two undefeated Hodge seasons, 4x Big Ten champ, lost 3 regulation matches in his career, and he really was viewed as a phenom during his career.  And if GOAT-quality Dake hadn't made the stunning decision to move up to take on the Hodge winner while not cutting any weight, Taylor was probably the owner of a one loss career.  I think you could reasonably argue that those three had comparable college careers to Taylor (though I'd probably disagree), but I can't reasonably see their college careers as much better.

Though you're correct in that when you bring Olympic medals (and freestyle careers) into it, those three had better careers than Taylor, so far anyway.  

[scribe 1,654]

Hodge trophy is just a popularity vanity award. It isn't a benchmark for anything historical other than a possible weak peer pool at that time.

[whaletail 106]

17 hours ago, HokieHWT said:

Yes, those three are MUCH better wrestlers than Taylor. How many Olympic medals does he have?

Changing the goalposts?  And for clarity's sake, I was comparing Taylor to your entire list, not merely the latter three.

Not that his WC gold isn't commensurate, and given the reduced number of available weights, possibly the more notable accomplishment.  Competing in the 90s, Taylor would almost certainly have made many more world teams as well, and won multiple World/Olympic medals.

Not only was his NCAA career as good, or better, than any on your list, but his Senior career is nothing to scoff at.

The idea that anyone on your list, let alone those three, were MUCH better wrestlers is just as absurd as your initial thesis.

[BadgerMon 123]

17 hours ago, HokieHWT said:

Yes, those three are MUCH better wrestlers than Taylor. How many Olympic medals does he have?

Olympic medal(s) shouldn't be criteria  here because we are down to six or seven weights instead of the more reasonable ten. 

Also, you have more former Soviets in the Olympic pool now.

 

[stp 488]

Dake in college was the greatest boring wrestler, ever.  

[Housebuye 1,820]

On 8/28/2019 at 4:44 AM, scribe said:

Hodge trophy is just a popularity vanity award. It isn't a benchmark for anything historical other than a possible weak peer pool at that time.

I hear what you are saying, as the pick isn't completely objective, but it is mostly objective. It means something for sure, but maybe not as much as we like to think

[Housebuye 1,820]

On 8/28/2019 at 9:59 AM, whaletail said:

Changing the goalposts?  And for clarity's sake, I was comparing Taylor to your entire list, not merely the latter three.

Not that his WC gold isn't commensurate, and given the reduced number of available weights, possibly the more notable accomplishment.  Competing in the 90s, Taylor would almost certainly have made many more world teams as well, and won multiple World/Olympic medals.

Not only was his NCAA career as good, or better, than any on your list, but his Senior career is nothing to scoff at.

The idea that anyone on your list, let alone those three, were MUCH better wrestlers is just as absurd as your initial thesis.

Taylor in peak form would've been one of the best wrestlers of all time if he competed in the 90s. The improvements each wrestling generation makes are insane. Guys who don't whiff a world team would be world champs if you go back a few decades. 

For these types of comparisons, if it is literally "who would beat who at their peak" argument, the more recent guy will almost always win (assuming credentials are somewhat similar). 

[KTG119 816]

On 8/27/2019 at 10:14 AM, whaletail said:

You think all those you mentioned had better NCAA careers than Taylor?  He was a 2x Hodge winner, and if anything, is spoken about with the sort of reverence and respect reserved for 4 timers.

Yes Taylor was 2 x Hodge award winner. The relevance of that in comparison to Henson, Terry Brands, and Angle is....I'm not sure what. Since they had all finished NCAA wrestling before the award was first handed out. 

[Meatey 9]

The Hodge Trophy may be a popularity contest in some peoples eyes, but being a popular wrestler is a great thing.  Any wrestler that draws a crowd and excitement to matches is what the sport needs.  Penn State and their dominate wrestlers, the amount of points that they put on the board, and their excitement to get a crowd going is awesome.  Dake is a great wrestler and one of the best.  He also beat one of the greatest wrestlers in our sport 3x's and I will admit, I picked and cheered for Taylor each time.  When fans talk about the greatest athletes in their particular sport, there will always be a element of each persons personal favorite.  What makes Kyle great is, nobody can deny the accomplishments that he has had and the wrestlers that he had to beat to achieve those accomplishments were also great wrestlers.  

So looking back, yes Dake was and still is that great.  I hope we can see some more greatness from him for the next two Olympic Cycles.