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NJDan

All these People Who Say Greco is Popular

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6 minutes ago, Katie said:

If the question is, are there more freestyle or Greco wrestlers at UWW events, it has to be freestyle by a healthy margin (when you count female and male freestyle wrestlers).

If the question is, which style generates more money in the free market, it seems to be freestyle. As far as I’m aware, there are three professional freestyle leagues (Germany, India, Iran) and zero professional Greco leagues. 

If the question is, who has the higher viewership numbers, we can’t answer that, as far I know. I am not aware of there being reliable on stats on live and broadcast viewership.

I think that pretty much wraps up the discussion.

you should really try and shake it up a bit...

it has to be old only having one trite thing to contribute all the time, right?

to be fair, cut and paste has to be easier than any kind of new/original thought, so, maybe you are ahead of the curve...

who knows...

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35 minutes ago, LJB said:

i will say, i am impressed... you do realize you have just separated yourself from 98% of the population...

i tip my cap to you...

 

I'll chime in here...from personal experience being on a couple US GR World teams.  Oftentimes when training and traveling overseas we would work out at the local gym prior to competitions.  I was always impressed with the GR technique while watching some of the kids/youth wrestlers in places like the Scandinavian countries, former eastern block countries, Russia, and Cuba.  Their GR technique was well developed at younger ages.  Not that this makes it more popular but it is an advantage in these countries that don't do folkstyle.  

We in America are used to folkstyle because we grow up with it.  The rest of the world does not.  How to grow a sport is from the youth level on up.  People once said soccer will never take off in the U.S., but it has and you know what...they DIDN'T change the rules.  As more people competed the more they appreciated the finer details of the sport and the sport earned their admiration.

Don't get me wrong, my favorite style is actually folkstyle and one of the main reasons is because our coaches make up the ncaa rules vs some bureaucratic officials organization like the WWE (formerly FILA) that changes rules every other month it seems.  With all the rule changes over the years in international wrestling, there really isn't a greater fan base in wrestling than when I was a kid.  Go to most wrestling tournaments and it is family members who are the spectators but this is no different though than swimming, gymnastics, skating, cycling, etc.   The majority of people who watch and follow any sport are people who grew up doing it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

so, to recap, participant numbers in age level world championships where the one wrestler per nation per weight is in effect tells us virtually nothing about the relative popularities of the styles. the USA sends the same number of participants to the world championships in all 3 styles, and yet we all know the popularity of each style in the USA is not equal. 

what we want is total participation numbers, and other broad measurements, like audience size and money invested in the styles. the number of participants in tournaments with all styles but with no limit on entries per nation will get us closer to that info, and though it would be far from perfect, is interesting enough on it's own to be worth looking into.

and in my humble and potentially incorrect opinion, that world wide there is a much larger audience for freestyle than greco, and there are far more practitioners of freestyle than greco.the fact that a few dozen small nordic and eastern european countries each sends a handful of greco roman wrestlers to world championships but zero freestylers does not change that opinion. 

thanks for the convo and enjoy the weekend my friends!

edit: sorry if Jon or LBJ think I was being a dick to them, it just seemed like they were getting mad and I was hoping to calm them down. sorry if i failed at that!

Just out of curiosity, why don't those Nordic and Eastern European nations send freestylers?  Is it not popular in those countries at any level?

Hasn't Sweden put some freestylers on, or near, the podium?

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3 minutes ago, John Morgan said:

I'll chime in here...from personal experience being on a couple US GR World teams.  Oftentimes when training and traveling overseas we would work out at the local gym prior to competitions.  I was always impressed with the GR technique while watching some of the kids/youth wrestlers in places like the Scandinavian countries, former eastern block countries, Russia, and Cuba.  Their GR technique was well developed at younger ages.  Not that this makes it more popular but it is an advantage in these countries that don't do folkstyle.  

We in America are used to folkstyle because we grow up with it.  The rest of the world does not.  How to grow a sport is from the youth level on up.  People once said soccer will never take off in the U.S., but it has and you know what...they DIDN'T change the rules.  As more people competed the more they appreciated the finer details of the sport and the sport earned their admiration.

Don't get me wrong, my favorite style is actually folkstyle and one of the main reasons is because our coaches make up the ncaa rules vs some bureaucratic officials organization like the WWE (formerly FILA) that changes rules every other month it seems.  With all the rule changes over the years in international wrestling, there really isn't a greater fan base in wrestling than when I was a kid.  Go to most wrestling tournaments and it is family members who are the spectators but this is no different though than swimming, gymnastics, skating, cycling, etc.   The majority of people who watch and follow any sport are people who grew up doing it.

 

 

Pfft! What do you know?

Kidding aside, everything you say makes sense, and I have to admit, a my perception about freestyle obviously stems from growing up with it and folkstyle (and never being much of a thrower).

As an aside, is the Greco technique at places like Northern Michigan as high quality as our comparable freestyle RTCs (i.e. the top RTCs)?  How about vs. the world?

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1 minute ago, John Morgan said:

I'll chime in here...from personal experience being on a couple US GR World teams.  Oftentimes when training and traveling overseas we would work out at the local gym prior to competitions.  I was always impressed with the GR technique while watching some of the kids/youth wrestlers in places like the Scandinavian countries, former eastern block countries, Russia, and Cuba.  Their GR technique was well developed at younger ages.  Not that this makes it more popular but it is an advantage in these countries that don't do folkstyle.  

We in America are used to folkstyle because we grow up with it.  The rest of the world does not.  How to grow a sport is from the youth level on up.  People once said soccer will never take off in the U.S., but it has and you know what...they DIDN'T change the rules.  As more people competed the more they appreciated the finer details of the sport and the sport earned their admiration.

Don't get me wrong, my favorite style is actually folkstyle and one of the main reasons is because our coaches make up the ncaa rules vs some bureaucratic officials organization like the WWE (formerly FILA) that changes rules every other month it seems.  With all the rule changes over the years in international wrestling, there really isn't a greater fan base in wrestling than when I was a kid.  Go to most wrestling tournaments and it is family members who are the spectators but this is no different though than swimming, gymnastics, skating, cycling, etc.   The majority of people who watch and follow any sport are people who grew up doing it.

 

 

little frustrates me more right now than my youngest wanting to only do greco right now and it not even being a possibility because of his age and size... next summer he will be a first year cadet and right now still only weighs 87 lbs... all he wants to do is train greco full time and he doesn't even have the option... best we can do is one day of greco a week during the **** style season...

all the while, the rest of the world has kids his age who have been learning the nuances and intricate technical aspects of greco full time since they were 10...

this season he won't wrestle one folk match because he would rather eat ground glass... we made a deal, no having to compete in the **** style all year... he has to practice it becasue there is literally no other options, but, no wasting time competing... he doesn't make either the U15 Greco World team or the Cadet team, then he has to wrestle HS as a freshmen... this is an experiment

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4 minutes ago, whaletail said:

As an aside, is the Greco technique at places like Northern Michigan as high quality as our comparable freestyle RTCs (i.e. the top RTCs)?  How about vs. the world?

i can tell you this, i have seen all sorts of world team members show technique to all ages of kids... watched lindland and mayab show technique... but, the difference between them and coach muhammed showing the details of a gut are literally night and day... not that they don't show good stuff, but, muhhamed has a different understanding because that is all he did...

i sat through a practice run by coach ahad several years ago when he was still at the OTC... again, night and day...

and the real key is, it doesn't matter... for the most part our greco guys are trying to learn this stuff after their bodies have already been conditioned for folk... their best years where they were more able to pick up things and incorporate new things quickly were wasted... 

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

little frustrates me more right now than my youngest wanting to only do greco right now and it not even being a possibility because of his age and size... next summer he will be a first year cadet and right now still only weighs 87 lbs... all he wants to do is train greco full time and he doesn't even have the option... best we can do is one day of greco a week during the **** style season...

all the while, the rest of the world has kids his age who have been learning the nuances and intricate technical aspects of greco full time since they were 10...

this season he won't wrestle one folk match because he would rather eat ground glass... we made a deal, no having to compete in the **** style all year... he has to practice it becasue there is literally no other options, but, no wasting time competing... he doesn't make either the U15 Greco World team or the Cadet team, then he has to wrestle HS as a freshmen... this is an experiment

Hi LJB,

That is one way to do it but I have found if you love wrestling, you can learn any style.  It depends on your end game I guess.  I remember in the my final trials match in 92 I lost to Dan Henderson.  Dan was a great all around wrestler but he didn't take the traditional college route after HS and went to Russia to train in GR.  Worked for him but I would say it is even more difficult today because you are dealing with fewer weight classes (Olympic years anyway).  Right  off the bat you have a 40% lower chance of making the team than in say 1992 because of this alone.  I remember when someone asked Lincoln McIlravy why he retired and he simply stated because I didn't have a weight class anymore.  Personal opinion though...I think the Olympics are way over rated and there are much better opportunities to pursue.  

I had three sons all wrestle through HS and I was their coach.  All enjoyed the sport and what it offered them and they wouldn't trade the experience for anything.  However, none of them had the same level of passion I did for the sport and now pursue different professions.  In the end, to even keep them in a sport as demanding as wrestling is a challenge...especially when the world around them offers instant gratification.  I digress though as that is another topic altogether.

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1 minute ago, John Morgan said:

Hi LJB,

That is one way to do it but I have found if you love wrestling, you can learn any style.  It depends on your end game I guess.  I remember in the my final trials match in 92 I lost to Dan Henderson.  Dan was a great all around wrestler but he didn't take the traditional college route after HS and went to Russia to train in GR.  Worked for him but I would say it is even more difficult today because you are dealing with fewer weight classes (Olympic years anyway).  Right  off the bat you have a 40% lower chance of making the team than in say 1992 because of this alone.  I remember when someone asked Lincoln McIlravy why he retired and he simply stated because I didn't have a weight class anymore.  Personal opinion though...I think the Olympics are way over rated and there are much better opportunities to pursue.  

I had three sons all wrestle through HS and I was their coach.  All enjoyed the sport and what it offered them and they wouldn't trade the experience for anything.  However, none of them had the same level of passion I did for the sport and now pursue different professions.  In the end, to even keep them in a sport as demanding as wrestling is a challenge...especially when the world around them offers instant gratification.  I digress though as that is another topic altogether.

i understand that fully and don't disagree, but, i am done with forcing him to wrestle a style he absolutely hates... and it is not that he hasn't excelled at folk... he  has placed every year at tulsa and kick off since he was 10... has been in the finals of both several times while always wrestling his walk around... but, he hates it... he hates practicing it... if he is forced to continue to wrestle a style he hates, it will beat him down very soon and he will quit... no way he could make it through an entire high school "career"

so, we are trying to figure it out and this country has made it extremely hard for him to focus on the style he loves...

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6 minutes ago, LJB said:

i understand that fully and don't disagree, but, i am done with forcing him to wrestle a style he absolutely hates... and it is not that he hasn't excelled at folk... he  has placed every year at tulsa and kick off since he was 10... has been in the finals of both several times while always wrestling his walk around... but, he hates it... he hates practicing it... if he is forced to continue to wrestle a style he hates, it will beat him down very soon and he will quit... no way he could make it through an entire high school "career"

so, we are trying to figure it out and this country has made it extremely hard for him to focus on the style he loves...

Being a dad is tough...when to push and when to hold back.  Parenting is like coaching, it becomes an art form.  I don't know enough of your personal situation to offer advice but I can say that Tulsa tournament is a tough one so if he is placing there he is salty.  

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1 minute ago, John Morgan said:

Being a dad is tough...when to push and when to hold back.  Parenting is like coaching, it becomes an art form.  I don't know enough of your personal situation to offer advice but I can say that Tulsa tournament is a tough one so if he is placing there he is salty.  

yes it is...

i won't even bore you with the issues my oldest is going through, but, he was 3rd at cadet greco WTTs this year losing to a teammate 8-4 all because he din't think he was in a match the first 10 seconds... they both teched everyone else in the bracket with ease... that kind of talent and he has been kicked out of the OTC and suspended from USA wrestling for a year, so, clearly i don't have the answers...

but, obli di obli da... we will continue to try and find ways to make greco a priority...

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4 hours ago, whaletail said:

But what does that mean?  That they can't fill the Senior Freestyle brackets?  Considering the qualification process, that seems unlikely.

And I don't dispute your claims lightly.  I understand that you're as close to an international wrestling expert as we've got, and appreciate your contributions immensely.

Nonetheless, the fact that every WC features more Greco participants than any other discipline, does not - on its face - indicate Greco is the more popular style.

Moreover, until we define popularity (as it pertains to this discussion), we're just trying to talk over each other.

Since nobody else wants to I’ll provide the actual definition of a few terms at the center of this argument. 

POPULARITY : “a state or condition of being liked, admired, or supported by many people.” 

PARTICIPATION: “the action of taking part of something.”

In case people need more real life examples to help understand how participation does not equal popularity:

More adults in the US play tennis than football. Does that mean tennis is a more popular sport than football in the US? 

More high school kids in the US run cross country than play baseball. Does that mean cross country is a more popular sport than baseball in the US? 

More high school kids in the US wrestle than play golf. Does that mean wrestling is a more popular sport than golf in the US? 

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Fine, you can define popularity in terms of participation ore viewership (on  TV, streaming or ticket sales). But it does not seem that anyone here has any statistics on  any  of those points.

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:

Since nobody else wants to I’ll provide the actual definition of a few terms at the center of this argument. 

POPULARITY : “a state or condition of being liked, admired, or supported by many people.” 

PARTICIPATION: “the action of taking part of something.”

In case people need more real life examples to help understand how participation does not equal popularity:

More adults in the US play tennis than football. Does that mean tennis is a more popular sport than football in the US? 

More high school kids in the US run cross country than play baseball. Does that mean cross country is a more popular sport than baseball in the US? 

More high school kids in the US wrestle than play golf. Does that mean wrestling is a more popular sport than golf in the US? 

But you are talking about comparing two completely different sports, and participation in one vs viewership in another. So I don’t really think (respectfully) that’s at all relevant to this discussion, popularity of two disciplines within the same sport. 

Edited by Lurker

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

But you are talking about comparing two completely different sports, and participation in one vs viewership in another. So I don’t really think (respectfully) that’s at all relevant to this discussion, popularity of two disciplines within the same sport. 

I was simply highlighting examples where the distinction between popularity and participation in the sports realm should be obvious.

But even for participation only considerations:

Like world championship participation numbers in freestyle and Greco, high school participation numbers in sports like and golf baseball are high restricted. There are a limited number of spots available per participating team...so it’s more about how many high schools choose compete than how many kids are interested in the sport nationwide. World championships in freestyle and Greco are no different...it has more to do with how many countries choose to compete and field a team than how many interested wrestlers there are world wide. It totally ignores the fact there are maybe 300 guys who wanted a US freestyle spot and didn’t get it vs maybe 20 guys who wanted a spot on Finland’s Greco team and didn’t get it.

At the end of the day it’s probably an issue of participation depth vs participation breadth between the 2 styles and how to weight them in the popularity debate.

I don’t think many people are still debating a few of the basic facts. I certainly am not debating that there are more Greco wrestlers enrolled in the senior level world championships each year. And I really doubt anyone doubts there are drastically more freestyle wrestlers in the US and more freestyle wrestlers in Japan and India. Those numbers add up...to the point I would wager heavily there are more freestyle wrestlers in the world than Greco. That’s just my educated guess...I openly admit I do not have the stats to back that up and apparently nobody does, otherwise they should’ve come out on this thread a long time ago. 

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2 minutes ago, MDogg said:

I was simply highlighting examples where the distinction between popularity and participation in the sports realm should be obvious.

But even for participation only considerations:

Like world championship participation numbers in freestyle and Greco, high school participation numbers in sports like and golf baseball are high restricted. There are a limited number of spots available per participating team...so it’s more about how many high schools choose compete than how many kids are interested in the sport nationwide. World championships in freestyle and Greco are no different...it has more to do with how many countries choose to compete and field a team than how many interested wrestlers there are world wide. It totally ignores the fact there are maybe 300 guys who wanted a US freestyle spot and didn’t get it vs maybe 20 guys who wanted a spot on Finland’s Greco team and didn’t get it.

At the end of the day it’s probably an issue of participation depth vs participation breadth between the 2 styles and how to weight them in the popularity debate.

I don’t think many people are still debating a few of the basic facts. I certainly am not debating that there are more Greco wrestlers enrolled in the senior level world championships each year. And I really doubt anyone doubts there are drastically more freestyle wrestlers in the US and more freestyle wrestlers in Japan and India. Those numbers add up...to the point I would wager heavily there are more freestyle wrestlers in the world than Greco. That’s just my educated guess...I openly admit I do not have the stats to back that up and apparently nobody does, otherwise they should’ve come out on this thread a long time ago. 

I think I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I don’t think participation numbers at Senior WC are a great way of discerning it. It’s an indicator but I think a small one. When you factor in its the same at every age level it carries some more weight. I think more than total numbers across the world, I think a better way to look at it is nation by nation. And once you do that, how many nations stack up on the FS side and how many on the Greco side. (Man I’m really getting to semantics here). If you talk total numbers world wide, America for example heavily skews it away from Greco....but we’re just one nation. 

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at the end of the day, i am glad that OP started this thread... 

if anything i hope the silly posters who constantly call for greco to be removed from the world stage realize that they are the problem and not greco... the numbers prove that greco is just fine across all age groups...

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i think "which of these disciplines is more popular" is an insanely dumb question, likely unanswerable and here we are on page 5 of yelling about it. what are the stakes to the answer to this question? anyone here, individually, will not like their chosen style more if they are joined in their preference by more people.

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11 hours ago, ugarte said:

i think "which of these disciplines is more popular" is an insanely dumb question, likely unanswerable and here we are on page 5 of yelling about it. what are the stakes to the answer to this question? anyone here, individually, will not like their chosen style more if they are joined in their preference by more people.

I think you've got one side of people who rightfully adore freestyle wrestling and its American folkstyle cousin who would like nothing more than to see more of our beloved stars get a shot at the Olympics. When we've been so bad at Greco for a number of years now and it's a style pretty far removed from the one we hold dearest, it's easy to want to target Greco as hopefully a fall guy solution for getting what we'd like to have. 

On the other side, you've got many of us who follow all 3 international styles to some degree and realize the American opinion of Greco is not necessarily the same opinion in the majority of nations and we're trying to provide a little perspective to the fact that it's not going anywhere. 

I agree that without quantifiable viewership and participation data, the arguments are fairly limited and it's a bit pointless to go at each other's throats after we've heard the two sides enough to know the main points. Even if we had all the data, I'm sure, as others have intimated, the overall viewership of freestyle would be much more than Greco even though the number of nations investing in Greco is clearly more. Knowing those things, we're stuck running in circles selectively picking the facts that support our side when none of it has anything to do with our real concern--which is, "How on God's green earth can we get more respect and more weight classes in our sport's biggest showcase event?"

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2 minutes ago, jsmalls131313 said:

Good to see we are all in agreement that Greco is boring and less popular.

 

RIP Greco Roman 708 BC-2019 AD

It was actually invented by a French guy in the mid 1800s.

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10 minutes ago, jsmalls131313 said:

Stop whitewashing history,  nazi. 

If this message board was called “Ancient Persian Internet Forum,” that would not make it, in fact, an internet forum from ancient Persia.

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2 minutes ago, Katie said:

If this message board was called “Ancient Persian Internet Forum,” that would not make it, in fact, an internet forum from ancient Persia.

Greco Roman was actually invented by a dainty, Grecian woman in 708 BC. Keep your chauvinist, revisionist history to yourself. 

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