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Yianni/Zain at scratch weight or allowance?

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I'll be shocked if there's not at least a kilo allowance.

USAW won't want them that depleted so soon before the real tourney.

FWIW, the three Russian wrestle offs last week had a 3 kilo allowance.  That seems really high.

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40 minutes ago, whaletail said:

I'll be shocked if there's not at least a kilo allowance.

USAW won't want them that depleted so soon before the real tourney.

FWIW, the three Russian wrestle offs last week had a 3 kilo allowance.  That seems really high.

I'd be surprised if Yianni's camp would agree to a weight allowance.  Zain appears to have a more difficult cut than Yianni.

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How can this be anything but scratch weight?  Are there any rules citations that someone can point to that would allow a different weight?

 

From USAW 2019 WTT Procedures:

IV. Final Wrestle-Off 1. The Final Wrestle-Off of all weight classes will be contested in a best-of-three format. a. Weigh-ins for Final X will be held the day of the competition and will be at scratch weight.

Edited by jchapman

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21 hours ago, treep2000 said:

As a fan, and as someone who wants the absolute best at the weight, when it matters, I want no allowance.  Both guys must be on point for this.  Period.

That's my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.  

I see both sides of the argument, and agree with lu_alum that Yianni will definitely want it scratch.  Whether it's an informal, see if the coaches can agree, type of deal, or whether it follows a USAW/UWW mandate, I don't know.

Hard to imagine it's ideal for the Zain to have to make weight twice in such quick succession, and I want to see both at their best.

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22 hours ago, jchapman said:

How can this be anything but scratch weight?  Are there any rules citations that someone can point to that would allow a different weight?

 

From USAW 2019 WTT Procedures:

IV. Final Wrestle-Off 1. The Final Wrestle-Off of all weight classes will be contested in a best-of-three format. a. Weigh-ins for Final X will be held the day of the competition and will be at scratch weight.

They aren’t supposed to be able to change the outcome of a match that’s already been completed either, that that argument holds no water. 

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1 minute ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

They aren’t supposed to be able to change the outcome of a match that’s already been completed either, that that argument holds no water. 

Not exactly apples to apples

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1 hour ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

They aren’t supposed to be able to change the outcome of a match that’s already been completed either, that that argument holds no water. 

But going back 45s (after the actual challenge was unsuccessful, mind) and changing the winner, without giving the original winner a chance to wrestle out the match while aware of the score makes sense?

Despite officiating that match poorly to begin with, they actually managed the challenge with even less competence.  At that point, a fair accounting was off the table, and the only solution left was the lesser of two evils.

Ironically, although Sylvestri's testimony likely won the arbitration for Yianni, he says he would have scored match #2 6-6 Zain, but not because of the 2 and 2 debacle.  Apparently, although procedurally improper, the 2-2 scoring that was eventually overturned was correct the first time (and I think wouldn't have even been procedural impossible had all three conferenced afterward).

Instead, Sylvestri scored the very first exchange of the match 4-2 Zain instead of 4-4.  As much as I wanted Yianni to win, I couldn't figure out how he exposed Zain twice, and I'm still surprised Cael didn't challenge it immediately.

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3 hours ago, whaletail said:

But going back 45s (after the actual challenge was unsuccessful, mind) and changing the winner, without giving the original winner a chance to wrestle out the match while aware of the score makes sense?

Despite officiating that match poorly to begin with, they actually managed the challenge with even less competence.  At that point, a fair accounting was off the table, and the only solution left was the lesser of two evils.

Ironically, although Sylvestri's testimony likely won the arbitration for Yianni, he says he would have scored match #2 6-6 Zain, but not because of the 2 and 2 debacle.  Apparently, although procedurally improper, the 2-2 scoring that was eventually overturned was correct the first time (and I think wouldn't have even been procedural impossible had all three conferenced afterward).

Instead, Sylvestri scored the very first exchange of the match 4-2 Zain instead of 4-4.  As much as I wanted Yianni to win, I couldn't figure out how he exposed Zain twice, and I'm still surprised Cael didn't challenge it immediately.

I agree Zain was the winner regardless 

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9 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

I agree Zain was the winner regardless 

Had Yianni known he was actually losing, I'm not sure he would've scored, but I'm confident he'd have tried.

At least Zain had the opportunity (and couldn't).

Re-wrestling match #2 is both the fairest course of action, as well as the only way to ensure the best possible rep goes to worlds.

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14 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Interesting the the head official at UWW even commented that he'd have had Zain the winner of match 2, agreeing with those who believed the initial sequence of that match was scored wrong. 

maybe it was so obvious that it compounds the corner's error in failing to challenge immediately. really makes you think. 

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27 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Interesting the the head official at UWW even commented that he'd have had Zain the winner of match 2, agreeing with those who believed the initial sequence of that match was scored wrong. 

Are there transcripts available somewhere?

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22 minutes ago, ugarte said:

maybe it was so obvious that it compounds the corner's error in failing to challenge immediately. really makes you think. 

The NLWC coaches are really good at corner challenges as their record is well known. I think if the score on that first sequence came out 4-2 Yianni OR if that sequence were in the final 90 seconds, they probably challenge it. The fact it was in the first 5 seconds and the score was still tied is the likely culprit for the non challenge. 

Edited by TBar1977

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16 hours ago, whaletail said:

But going back 45s (after the actual challenge was unsuccessful, mind) and changing the winner, without giving the original winner a chance to wrestle out the match while aware of the score makes sense?

Despite officiating that match poorly to begin with, they actually managed the challenge with even less competence.  At that point, a fair accounting was off the table, and the only solution left was the lesser of two evils.

Ironically, although Sylvestri's testimony likely won the arbitration for Yianni, he says he would have scored match #2 6-6 Zain, but not because of the 2 and 2 debacle.  Apparently, although procedurally improper, the 2-2 scoring that was eventually overturned was correct the first time (and I think wouldn't have even been procedural impossible had all three conferenced afterward).

Instead, Sylvestri scored the very first exchange of the match 4-2 Zain instead of 4-4.  As much as I wanted Yianni to win, I couldn't figure out how he exposed Zain twice, and I'm still surprised Cael didn't challenge it immediately.

That is what he was talking about.  Yianni won and then they went back an arbitrary amount of time and gifted the match to the Zain Train.  They weren't supposed to do that.

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34 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

That is what he was talking about.  Yianni won and then they went back an arbitrary amount of time and gifted the match to the Zain Train.  They weren't supposed to do that.

Yianni never "won". You need your hand raised to "win". He led due to scoring that the opponent believed to be incorrect AND which the rule book itself disallows.

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26 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Yianni never "won". You need your hand raised to "win". He led due to scoring that the opponent believed to be incorrect AND which the rule book itself disallows.

The arbitrator begs to differ.  The opponent did not believe the scoring improper, else they would have challenged when the scoring occurred.

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Interesting the the head official at UWW even commented that he'd have had Zain the winner of match 2, agreeing with those who believed the initial sequence of that match was scored wrong. 

Although not an expert, I was pretty shocked Yianni came out of that sequence tied (although losing on criteria), and 4-2 Zain seems reasonable.  At the time, I was worried Cael would challenge, and it would end up 4-0 Zain (I don't think I realized Yianni had exposed Zain as well).

Regardless, I hope Zain's healthy, and that there aren't any procedural or scoring controversies associated with the upcoming wrestle off.

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38 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Yianni never "won". You need your hand raised to "win". He led due to scoring that the opponent believed to be incorrect AND which the rule book itself disallows.

Notwithstanding technicalities like whose hand was raised, I don't think either wrestler won the second match.

Yianni probably benefited from a scoring error, but wasn't given the opportunity to wrestle the final 45s aware that he was actually losing.

Edit: Regarding the rule book comment, suppose someone noted the 2 & 2 procedural error, and communicated the mistake to the chair.  Could he have then called for a conference, and "ratified" the 2 & 2 call?  Or would he have had to side with one of the two original scores during conference?

Edited by whaletail
additional question

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18 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

The arbitrator begs to differ.  The opponent did not believe the scoring improper, else they would have challenged when the scoring occurred.

YThe arbitrator threw the match out, he did not make any decision that Yianni "won" the match. 

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