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Yianni/Zain at scratch weight or allowance?

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10 minutes ago, whaletail said:

Notwithstanding technicalities like whose hand was raised, I don't think either wrestler won the second match.

Yianni probably benefited from a scoring error, but wasn't given the opportunity to wrestle the final 45s aware that he was actually losing.

Edit: Regarding the rule book comment, suppose someone noted the 2 & 2 procedural error, and communicated the mistake to the chair.  Could he have then called for a conference, and "ratified" the 2 & 2 call?  Or would he have had to side with one of the two original scores during conference?

The way I understand it, the Chair would have been required to score 2 Red or 2 Blue. Just what was offered. 2-2 was not an option, even with a conference. 

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

The way I understand it, the Chair would have been required to score 2 Red or 2 Blue. Just what was offered. 2-2 was not an option, even with a conference. 

They could conference and come out if it with 2-2. Unless something relative to that has changed over the last five years but I don’t believe so. 

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15 minutes ago, Lurker said:

They could conference and come out if it with 2-2. Unless something relative to that has changed over the last five years but I don’t believe so. 

It changed in 2018

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3 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

The NLWC coaches are really good at corner challenges as their record is well known. I think if the score on that first sequence came out 4-2 Yianni OR if that sequence were in the final 90 seconds, they probably challenge it. The fact it was in the first 5 seconds and the score was still tied is the likely culprit for the non challenge. 

oh that's what you meant by "initial sequence." my bad. I was just goofing. 

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4 hours ago, Lurker said:

Just looked it up. It is applicable. They could conference and come out with the 2-2. 

Honestly, I wish they'd have done that because maybe then NLWC would have thrown the brick and Tucci would then have made it 2-0 Zain and maybe the whole arbitration never happens. 

Edited by TBar1977

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13 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Honestly, I wish they'd have done that because maybe then NLWC would have thrown the brick and Tucci would then have made it 2-0 Zain and maybe the whole arbitration never happens. 

If there was an concrete call on the mat, you don’t know he would have overturned said call. He didn’t have anything to overturn in that situation because there wasn’t a concrete score on that sequence. Not saying he would or wouldn’t, just saying he didn’t have the standard to reach there you typically have in a review, because it wasn’t an overturn or let stand situation, which makes it tough to say definitively. Not too mention it’s not his call and his call only to make. 

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3 hours ago, Lurker said:

If there was an concrete call on the mat, you don’t know he would have overturned said call. He didn’t have anything to overturn in that situation because there wasn’t a concrete score on that sequence. Not saying he would or wouldn’t, just saying he didn’t have the standard to reach there you typically have in a review, because it wasn’t an overturn or let stand situation, which makes it tough to say definitively. Not too mention it’s not his call and his call only to make. 

Since he would ultimately accepted a brick and changed the 2-2 to 2 Red, I don't think its much of stretch to think if the brick had come earlier he'd make the exact same scoring change. 

Edited by TBar1977

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23 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I think you’re missing my point. But either way it’s a hypothetical so we’ll never know. 

You made this point many times prior to the arbitration decision. I get what you are saying. I am just saying that Tucci thought it was 2 red when he scored it, this after the Chair scored 2-2. Presumably he'd have it 2 red even after a chair conference coming up with that same 2-2 score. Again, not 100 percent, but also no stretch to feel that way.

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6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You made this point many times prior to the arbitration decision. I get what you are saying. I am just saying that Tucci thought it was 2 red when he scored it, this after the Chair scored 2-2. Presumably he'd have it 2 red even after a chair conference coming up with that same 2-2 score. Again, not 100 percent, but also no stretch to feel that way.

Nope not a stretch

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23 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Yianni never "won". You need your hand raised to "win". He led due to scoring that the opponent believed to be incorrect AND which the rule book itself disallows.

the scoreboard did say 8-6 Yianni after time expired FWIW.

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5 minutes ago, DuckFor2 said:

the scoreboard did say 8-6 Yianni after time expired FWIW.

And that was based on a score that was not allowable given the circumstances. So like I said before, Yianni led based on a score the Chair made that the rule book does not allow. Seems like we agree, Yianni did not "win". 

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It’s at least being settled on the mat.  We can be grateful for that rather than someone screwing* around with the score.  If Zain is better, he is up 1 and only needs 1.  He will win.  If not, he won’t.  Even I can do that math.

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I am guilty. I am a pot calling kettle black ...

But come on folks - let it rest.  Go outside. Do something productive.  Too much inane repeated back and forth on this topic.  Go kiss your mom / kid / spouse / person you’ve been admiring.

Edited by nom

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On 8/25/2019 at 9:02 AM, Lurker said:

Just looked it up. It is applicable. They could conference and come out with the 2-2. 

Correct. My problem with everything was the 2-2 should have never gone up on the scoreboard at all. That's why I've asked in other threads should a wrestler have to challenge the score when there's been an error. I dont mean a score that is going to be challenged. But on a simple take down when everybody agrees it's 2 but the scoreboard operator puts up 4 or the scoreboard operator adds 10 to somebody's score by mistake. Should a wrestler have to challenge that? The 2-2 could not go up on the scoreboard at the juncture that it did in the match. Zach is a great official but if he instructed the operator of the scoreboard to put up 2-2 then both wrestlers were harmed. One other point that I I had a problem with was the 2-2 score. There was one scoring move. End of story. I personally thought it was Zain's 2 but it could easily be construed either way. But there was only one move that caused exposure. 2-2 is just taking the chicken**** way out in that instance. Too many times officials want to do that just to appease both when there's only one scoring move there. Amazing but if he makes a call of 2 one way or the other, either side will immediately throw in a challenge brick and more than likely that's the end of it. Whoever rules on challenges would make their ruling and that would have been the end of it. We all make mistakes in this world but I think the mat chairman definitely made a mistake in that match. Yes, a judgment call on the 2-2 but after that having that score put up on the scoreboard wasn't official error in way overstepped his bounds.

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1 hour ago, ConnorsDad said:

Correct. My problem with everything was the 2-2 should have never gone up on the scoreboard at all. That's why I've asked in other threads should a wrestler have to challenge the score when there's been an error. I dont mean a score that is going to be challenged. But on a simple take down when everybody agrees it's 2 but the scoreboard operator puts up 4 or the scoreboard operator adds 10 to somebody's score by mistake. Should a wrestler have to challenge that? The 2-2 could not go up on the scoreboard at the juncture that it did in the match. Zach is a great official but if he instructed the operator of the scoreboard to put up 2-2 then both wrestlers were harmed. One other point that I I had a problem with was the 2-2 score. There was one scoring move. End of story. I personally thought it was Zain's 2 but it could easily be construed either way. But there was only one move that caused exposure. 2-2 is just taking the chicken**** way out in that instance. Too many times officials want to do that just to appease both when there's only one scoring move there. Amazing but if he makes a call of 2 one way or the other, either side will immediately throw in a challenge brick and more than likely that's the end of it. Whoever rules on challenges would make their ruling and that would have been the end of it. We all make mistakes in this world but I think the mat chairman definitely made a mistake in that match. Yes, a judgment call on the 2-2 but after that having that score put up on the scoreboard wasn't official error in way overstepped his bounds.

I don’t think 2-2 is a chicken **** way out. The reason it’s such a hard call to make is because there’s the appearance of both guys starting their action at pretty much the same time. It was two guys wanting to take a technique in the same direction and hitting it at the same time, that’s what made it so hard to call. 

That said you are correct in that 2-2 should never have went up. I would love to know why it did but don’t feel it’s my place to ask him. However, proper procedure would have been for the three to conference, determine a score,  and then if there was a challenge there was a challenge. But having that conference first would have negated all the aftermath. 

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If the idea was to turn and control a wrestler with back exposure instead of "roll me over, and over, and over ..." it would be much easier to understand. This business of just rolling to expose the back is nowhere near showing actual control as one is supposed to do in Folkstyle.

We won't get into true double elimination tournament for now. Still asinine to  travel thousands of miles for "one and done" or "I advanced because the guy who pinned me in 8 seconds did good".

 

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