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Rules of exposure - Yianni / Zain

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3 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

jon, all I got was crap for those posts all summer. People call me and a few others pretty much every disparaging thing they could think of, and they repeatedly said Zain wasn't as good as Yianni. Excuse me for pushing back on that today. 

Everything said that hurt your feelings is true. 

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Bob, 

Now I don't feel so bad.  If you saw it as I saw it, I can't be crazy.  Hope life is treating you and your family well.  You were one tough bastard!!

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I don't think there is anyone on the board arguing that Yianni should have won.  Our questioning is geared towards understanding the rules.  Best explanation thus far has been provided by Crotalus.  Based on his explanation, I think I understand why Zain got the points.

Edited by RED

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It was definitely a very close call on who initiated... watching live I thought it was Yianni, but I watched the replay several times and can see how they gave it to Zain. It’s worth noting though that Yianni barely exposed if at all (I do think he hit 90 very briefly) while Zain was flat on his back. I am not sure why Cornell did not challenge though. There are two very debatable aspects that could have gone either way (initiation and Yianni exposure). Plus even if they gave up a point for a lost challenge there, a takedown gets them back in the lead. I think they were hesitant to throw the brick because they saw penn state waste theirs early. 

Anyway, I really like both wrestlers and I am happy for Zain. Not sure why everyone was saying only Yianni has a chance to medal between them. I think Zain brings home a medal this year!

Edited by Eagle26

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I have the same question as the open post here. In the exchange Yianni executed the leg attack securing Zain's leg, Zain secured a crotch lock and initiated a throw, as Yianni hoisted Zain's leg, and Zain's back was exposed. I've looked at this many times and feel like those were Yianni's exposure points. Frankly, I didn't see Yianni expose. I'm happy Zain won and really like Yianni too. The rules seem to make official calls more complicated. Not sure what can be done to improve, but these ref disputes are all too frequent.

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Zain went back while lifting yianni. no way do they give yianni 2 there. yianni was *barely* exposed and I wasn't sure when I watched it live (and still don't love the camera angle) but on rewatch it seemed as if he was. he certainly didn't argue at all.  it looked like he might get 2 back as he fought it off but Zain defended it. yianni came close a couple of times but wherever he came close Zain put a hammer lock on a foot/ankle and froze the action. Zain didn't have any successfull shots but he had nassar near-misses just like yianni. hell of a match for 2-1.

don't be results oriented: protesting was still the right thing to do. team yianni was right about the late brick. 

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6 hours ago, CMickey92 said:

Dumb or not, the rules make for the most entertaining style of wrestling by a decent margin. 

I agree that freestyle matches are generally more entertaining to watch than folkstyle these days.  There is more action and more athleticism in freestyle.

But I'm not sure freestyle is more satisfying to watch, for the reason illustrated by this thread.  While folkstyle is not without subjectivity and disagreements, it's nothing like the fog of war that is freestyle. 

In just the two versions of the Y-Z second match, we had the opening sequence of the first one, the contested sequence of the first one, and the one discussed on this thread.  People on this board are very knowledgeable fans and there is nothing resembling a consensus on any of these calls.  No one can agree on the terms of the debate, let alone the outcome.

That detracts from the experience to me, as compared to the folkstyle control scoring where there is more of a common understanding of what constitutes success and scoring.

I always wonder if you could take the stepout rule from freestyle to force more action and add it to college matches with their control approach to scoring and have a great product.  The step out rule is an objective freestyle rule that adds action, but which does not lead to the confusion and exasperation over who should have gotten points that results from the subjective freestyle scramble rules.  Maybe taking just that one rule from freestyle could help folkstyle catch up in the entertainment column.

 

Edited by drag it

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2 hours ago, ugarte said:

Zain went back while lifting yianni. no way do they give yianni 2 there. yianni was *barely* exposed and I wasn't sure when I watched it live (and still don't love the camera angle) but on rewatch it seemed as if he was. he certainly didn't argue at all.  it looked like he might get 2 back as he fought it off but Zain defended it. yianni came close a couple of times but wherever he came close Zain put a hammer lock on a foot/ankle and froze the action. Zain didn't have any successfull shots but he had nassar near-misses just like yianni. hell of a match for 2-1.

don't be results oriented: protesting was still the right thing to do. team yianni was right about the late brick. 

Actually, to this point, Yianni's coaches had the best angle and didn't throw the brick in the Sept 2 match. It was exciting from start to finish. Zain had many leg attacks that he would have finished on just about anyone in the world, except Yianni. I think we may have the best 65kg chance to medal in a long time. Some of our best wrestlers ever, Metcalf, Stieber, JO, and so many more have fallen short of achieving their goals at this weight. I actually think Yianni has the best future at this weight, but also believe Zain can get it done in Kaz.

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6 hours ago, LJB said:

2 and 2 is not a possible scoring scenario... I’m not sure why people refuse to pick up on that fact

For one continuous movement this is true, but there are many scoring sequences that are scored 2 and 2 because there are two moves in one sequence. I don’t think that’s the case here (or in their last match), but you must admit thats hard to tell. 

6 hours ago, LJB said:

The reason there is little consensus is that most are not all that knowledgeable...

This is not really true either... how often do you see the professional refs disagree? There are also many knowledgeable fans on here that can see both sides, although many are so biased they only see one way. The problem is it’s very subjective to determine who initiated the move sometimes 

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13 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

What is funny is that the two sides are now switching to the other side of the same argument. 

In the last match I thought Zain initiated and should have been awarded the points. Others obviously disagreed.

In this match today the two are on the other end of things. Yianni shoots, but Zain sits the corner this time. Zain stuffs the Yianni shot and there is a clear couple of seconds where Yianni is bellied out. Zain gets the crotch lift and its again his move, and that is how they scored it. Zain's move led to Zain getting exposure on Yianni. 2 pts for Zain. Very easy call to make. 

Yianni ended up in a weird backwards ankle lace situation he might have been able to turn into exposure, but he never developed it. 

Lol, I'm shocked you've managed to convince yourself that you're being consistent with this interpretation when everyone on this forum knows what side you are going to come down on before we even start reading the post. If the roles were reversed in that position, you would be arguing for the opposite call because you're a Penn State homer.

Zain getting 2 there flies in the face of your entire reasoning from the first controversy. Yes, Zain stopped Yianni's initial move by sitting to the corner and starting the scramble. That's also exactly what happened at Final X. They got the call right here, though I could see an argument for 2 and 2. They got it wrong at Final X.

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5 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

Lol, I'm shocked you've managed to convince yourself that you're being consistent with this interpretation when everyone on this forum knows what side you are going to come down on before we even start reading the post. If the roles were reversed in that position, you would be arguing for the opposite call because you're a Penn State homer.

Zain getting 2 there flies in the face of your entire reasoning from the first controversy. Yes, Zain stopped Yianni's initial move by sitting to the corner and starting the scramble. That's also exactly what happened at Final X. They got the call right here, though I could see an argument for 2 and 2. They got it wrong at Final X.

Point 1, not necessarily. It just depends on who initiates the move and if it is one move or two moves. In both matches I thought Zain initiated the roll thru, the first match from the top and the second time from the crotch lift. 

You know either wrestler can initiate the move from either position. 

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I think it is fair to assume that if you 'go with' the crotch lift looking to expose the defender, and exposure yourself in the process, you're going to give up that score >90% of the time, unless it is abundantly clear that you alone forced the action.  A similar situation is an elbow hook roll executed from the bottom guy in par-terre while the top guy goes all the way through with the gut-wrench hold in tact; you're probably not getting those points unless you end up on top.  All things considered, this seems like a pretty standard Zain crotch-lift for 2 points.  Yes, the scoring on exposure is subjective, but as an athlete you know when it looks like you're the scorer or not.  Zain's shut down defense forced Yianni to attempt a whole lot of unconventional exposures, many of which he got tantalizingly close to converting, but it's always going to be a crap shoot when you're living within the most subjective situations.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Point 1, not necessarily. It just depends on who initiates the move and if it is one move or two moves. In both matches I thought Zain initiated the roll thru, the first match from the top and the second time from the crotch lift. 

You know either wrestler can initiate the move from either position. 

Your whole argument in the first match was that Yianni could not have scored because he did not propery stop Zain's initial attack and therefore any points scored should be Zain's because it was still his attack. The irony is that Yianni's motion was only stopped for 7 seconds before the move, whereas in the first match, Zain's motion was stopped for 25ish seconds. By your logic from the first exchange, this was Yianni's move and Zain's exposure attempt was just a "desperation" final effort to not get exposed. This is why nobody takes you seriously on here. Your arguments change to fit the conclusion you want, and it's really easy to guess what your conclusion will be. I knew exactly what your argument would be before I even opened the topic.

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4 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

For one continuous movement this is true, but there are many scoring sequences that are scored 2 and 2 because there are two moves in one sequence. I don’t think that’s the case here (or in their last match), but you must admit thats hard to tell. 

This is not really true either... how often do you see the professional refs disagree? There are also many knowledgeable fans on here that can see both sides, although many are so biased they only see one way. The problem is it’s very subjective to determine who initiated the move sometimes 

no, i will not admit it... it was an easy call for zain in this instance... there is literally no way yianni could have based up and crated any action from his position... that sort of thing has to be considered in the awarding of points... those types of scenarios are talked about by the refs... and trust me when i say we have a lot of bad officials that still talk about what was applicable from 20 years ago...

 

and no, i do not agree that most of the "fans" on here are really that knowledgeable as evidenced by the constant calls for 2-2 and no understanding of greco/free positions, calls, rules... do the majority know more than the average stick and ball fan, yes... but that is hardly a bar worth mentioning...

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2 hours ago, qc8223 said:

Your whole argument in the first match was that Yianni could not have scored because he did not propery stop Zain's initial attack and therefore any points scored should be Zain's because it was still his attack. The irony is that Yianni's motion was only stopped for 7 seconds before the move, whereas in the first match, Zain's motion was stopped for 25ish seconds. By your logic from the first exchange, this was Yianni's move and Zain's exposure attempt was just a "desperation" final effort to not get exposed. This is why nobody takes you seriously on here. Your arguments change to fit the conclusion you want, and it's really easy to guess what your conclusion will be. I knew exactly what your argument would be before I even opened the topic.

You are way off. You are so wrapped up in your hate that you don't even seem to understand when the scoring move begins. 

The initial single leg shot in either of these two matches is not the "scoring move". The action of the initial shot in both cases was halted. That part is now over.

The "scoring move" i.e. what caused the scoring in both matches was the move to create the back exposure. That wasn't the initial Zain single leg shot in match 1, nor was it the initial single leg shot from Yianni in match 2. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

You are way off. You are so wrapped up in your hate that you don't even seem to understand when the scoring move begins. 

The initial single leg shot in either of these two matches is not the "scoring move". The action of the initial shot in both cases was halted. That part is now over.

The "scoring move" i.e. what caused the scoring in both matches was the move to create the back exposure. That wasn't the initial Zain single leg shot in match 1, nor was it the initial single leg shot from Yianni in match 2. 

You posted the following on 6/10/19 at 10:09 am:

"One more thing. I believe the rules require for the defensive wrestler to score from a chest wrap the defensive wrestler has to stop the offensive wrestler's movement, even if for only one second. They are in the position for more than 20 seconds with Zain continuously working towards that final exposure. Zain has Yianni in a very defensive position that Yianni just can't free himself of. He can't get behind Zain which is his normal go to from that crackdown. He obviously can't stalemate the position. He's going to get rolled eventually there, which is what happens. He just goes with it while trying to make it look like his action."

Are you recanting this statement now? If so, then good for you because you've moved to the correct position, as I told you at the time.

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21 hours ago, nom said:

About 1:45 into first period in the Zain Yianni Sept 2nd match, Yianni goes in for low single.  Zain gets a crotch lock.  Yianni has Zain's right foot and ankle outstretched.  He hooks Zain''s other leg with his own leg.  He is driving into Zain.  Zain has a crotch lock and is pulling on Yianni.  They roll to Zain's back as Yianni is hoisting Zain's leg up.  Yianni keeps foot hooked on Zain's leg (it is not outstretched as if counter balancing a roll).  After Zain goes to full back, Yianni exposes a bit.

2 for Zain. 

Cornell side does not throw brick.

I get how Zain was trying to pull Yianni over but Yianni was trying to put Zain to his back.  He he was by far the most successful in putting Zain to his back.  Zain goes full blades down.  

How is that not 2 for Yianni?

 

i thought while watching... isn't this the same position that caused the first problem!

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2 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

You posted the following on 6/10/19 at 10:09 am:

"One more thing. I believe the rules require for the defensive wrestler to score from a chest wrap the defensive wrestler has to stop the offensive wrestler's movement, even if for only one second. They are in the position for more than 20 seconds with Zain continuously working towards that final exposure. Zain has Yianni in a very defensive position that Yianni just can't free himself of. He can't get behind Zain which is his normal go to from that crackdown. He obviously can't stalemate the position. He's going to get rolled eventually there, which is what happens. He just goes with it while trying to make it look like his action."

Are you recanting this statement now? If so, then good for you because you've moved to the correct position, as I told you at the time.

Nope. 

The issue for me was whose move was it that caused the exposure because the exposure is what scored the pts. 

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

The "scoring move" i.e. what caused the scoring in both matches was the move to create the back exposure. That wasn't the initial Zain single leg shot in match 1, nor was it the initial single leg shot from Yianni in match 2. 

i think there's reasonable disagreement on whether the move in the Match That No Longer Exists was a pushoff with his foot by Zain or Yianni initiating the roll with the chest wrap. it's pretty clear where the two of us stand. people will still argue about it until the end of time. doesn't matter because Zain hit the crotch lock in the rematch.

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