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Rules of exposure - Yianni / Zain

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18 minutes ago, ugarte said:

i think there's reasonable disagreement on whether the move in the Match That No Longer Exists was a pushoff with his foot by Zain or Yianni initiating the roll with the chest wrap. it's pretty clear where the two of us stand. people will still argue about it until the end of time. doesn't matter because Zain hit the crotch lock in the rematch.

Exactly. We can agree to disagree with who initiated. In the end Zain made the adjustments to win the Final X reboot. 

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19 hours ago, nom said:

ok, thanks for the adults that responded.   I clearly saw the crotch lock.  I saw both trying to do the same thing by getting the roll to go in that direction.  Yianni was clearly trying to expose Zain by rolling him to his back from his seated position with the lift of the right ankle and the hooking of the other foot.   Zain clearly trying to expose Yianni with the crotch lock.  Crotch lock wins.  I plan to watch this more closely in the future.

I wondered the same thing about the points deal, but when Willie & CP didn't really question it, and Koll didn't challenge, I assumed it was a judgment call at best.

Nor can Yianni rely on roll throughs like that to win matches.  He needs to get to his own offense.

I was also surprised when the ref called a stalemate just as he secured a lace, but I'm not sure he would have converted it into points anyway.

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18 hours ago, drag it said:

I agree that freestyle matches are generally more entertaining to watch than folkstyle these days.  There is more action and more athleticism in freestyle.

But I'm not sure freestyle is more satisfying to watch, for the reason illustrated by this thread.  While folkstyle is not without subjectivity and disagreements, it's nothing like the fog of war that is freestyle. 

In just the two versions of the Y-Z second match, we had the opening sequence of the first one, the contested sequence of the first one, and the one discussed on this thread.  People on this board are very knowledgeable fans and there is nothing resembling a consensus on any of these calls.  No one can agree on the terms of the debate, let alone the outcome.

That detracts from the experience to me, as compared to the folkstyle control scoring where there is more of a common understanding of what constitutes success and scoring.

I always wonder if you could take the stepout rule from freestyle to force more action and add it to college matches with their control approach to scoring and have a great product.  The step out rule is an objective freestyle rule that adds action, but which does not lead to the confusion and exasperation over who should have gotten points that results from the subjective freestyle scramble rules.  Maybe taking just that one rule from freestyle could help folkstyle catch up in the entertainment column.

 

Do you really think the step out rule helps action? I see a lot of guys take the step out in lieu of possibly giving up a take down. Guys seem more than willing to give up 1. I am not experienced in wrestling but I understand the control that is required in folk. I don't get how a leg lace tornado demonstrates the superior wrestler. Maybe if I was a wrestler myself I would get it but I am training to learn.

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1 hour ago, JeanGuy said:

Do you really think the step out rule helps action? I see a lot of guys take the step out in lieu of possibly giving up a take down. Guys seem more than willing to give up 1. I am not experienced in wrestling but I understand the control that is required in folk. I don't get how a leg lace tornado demonstrates the superior wrestler. Maybe if I was a wrestler myself I would get it but I am training to learn.

The step out absolutely beyond doubt helps create action.  FS rules have some quirks and there is no such thing as a perfect rule set.  But action is definitely increased by making guys stay on the mat.  

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1 hour ago, JeanGuy said:

Do you really think the step out rule helps action? I see a lot of guys take the step out in lieu of possibly giving up a take down. Guys seem more than willing to give up 1. I am not experienced in wrestling but I understand the control that is required in folk. I don't get how a leg lace tornado demonstrates the superior wrestler. Maybe if I was a wrestler myself I would get it but I am training to learn.

I think the step out rule facilitates action.  It is an objective rule that creates incentives to stay on the mat and wrestle through action. 

It does allow wrestlers to give up 1 to avoid 2, but think of it by comparison.  That one point is a definite disincentive -- as compared to a no step out rule, where there isn't an unambiguous disincentive against working your way off the mat to avoid a takedown. 

The folkstyle rules on going off the mat are subjective, and I think that most people would agree that their enforcement is inconsistent, that the default for officials is to say there was action (no punishment for going off), and even if you get a stall, that's not a point the first time.  So you get people going off the mat in folk than free.  

It's impossible to prove, but when I watch a freestyle match, my sense is that the entire flow of the match (usually characterized by a lot of action) derives backwards from the step out rule -- from the wrestlers' understanding that they have to stay in the middle and engage.  

I agree with you about the control emphasis in folk being more understandable.  I also agree with you that watching a quick takedown and then four laces to a tech fall has  disadvantages.  I think my suggestion could be a potential compromise.  Import only the objective step out rule from freestyle as a starting point to see if it would help bring more action to folk.  

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the step out is the single most important rule in greco/free... and you can not just run out of bounds to avoid the takedown... that is called fleeing and becomes caution and 2 in greco and caution and 1 in free... no running to the edge for safety... you actually have to wrestle...

as far as the lace goes... don't want to get laced then don't allow yourself to get in that position... there is technique to par terre defense...

and i do get tired of the lace complaints... competitors score 5Xs more with guts than laces... i don't particularly care for a lace as they are more of a transition move and really are fairly simple to avoid... 

guts are where it is at... they steal your soul...

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On 9/2/2019 at 11:17 PM, drag it said:

I agree that freestyle matches are generally more entertaining to watch than folkstyle these days.  There is more action and more athleticism in freestyle.

But I'm not sure freestyle is more satisfying to watch, for the reason illustrated by this thread.  While folkstyle is not without subjectivity and disagreements, it's nothing like the fog of war that is freestyle. 

In just the two versions of the Y-Z second match, we had the opening sequence of the first one, the contested sequence of the first one, and the one discussed on this thread.  People on this board are very knowledgeable fans and there is nothing resembling a consensus on any of these calls.  No one can agree on the terms of the debate, let alone the outcome.

That detracts from the experience to me, as compared to the folkstyle control scoring where there is more of a common understanding of what constitutes success and scoring.

I always wonder if you could take the stepout rule from freestyle to force more action and add it to college matches with their control approach to scoring and have a great product.  The step out rule is an objective freestyle rule that adds action, but which does not lead to the confusion and exasperation over who should have gotten points that results from the subjective freestyle scramble rules.  Maybe taking just that one rule from freestyle could help folkstyle catch up in the entertainment column.

 

I completely agree.

As exciting as freestyle undoubtedly has become (with the occasional exception), it's crazy to me that a 4 point throw can occur, without anyone knowing whose points they are, until the ref decides, and the table then responds.

When points go up in folkstyle, we always know who earned them, and to me at least, that's really important.

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12 minutes ago, whaletail said:

As exciting as freestyle undoubtedly has become (with the occasional exception), it's crazy to me that a 4 point throw can occur, without anyone knowing whose points they are, until the ref decides, and the table then responds.

When points go up in folkstyle, we always know who earned them, and to me at least, that's really important.

i get you are using hyperbole for effect, but, the real problem is "fans" not understanding the rules...

then you have an FRL discussing a manufactured "controversy" and they keep saying 2-2, which, is not even a legal scoring option... so, ignorance just keeps getting spread around over and over again until it becomes some sort of gospel and screaming point...

the stallfest "earned" points comment i won't bother to address... 

**cough**

2TD - 1E

**earned**

**cough**

 

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24 minutes ago, whaletail said:

 

Agree with a lot of this. Those that don’t like the idea you can wrap up a match with a lace...I think have a very valid point. The old rule of only one consecutive gut or lace was close to a compromise, but then the other side of that is you are then punishing the guys that are really good at those techniques. It’s a knockout, just like a Kyven Gadsdon lateral sag didn’t exactly show us who truly the best wrestler is, we can’t take away the opportunity for that knockout. 

Edit: quoted wrong post

Edited by Lurker

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3 hours ago, LJB said:

i get you are using hyperbole for effect, but, the real problem is "fans" not understanding the rules...

then you have an FRL discussing a manufactured "controversy" and they keep saying 2-2, which, is not even a legal scoring option... so, ignorance just keeps getting spread around over and over again until it becomes some sort of gospel and screaming point...

the stallfest "earned" points comment i won't bother to address... 

**cough**

2TD - 1E

**earned**

**cough**

 

If understanding the rules requires memorizing the rulebook (and its interpretation), I'm not sure you can blame their confusion on the fans.  Unfortunately, scoring criteria like initiating the move etc. is subjective, not to mention often really difficult to distinguish in real time.  Quite often points could legitimately go to either wrestler, and that diminishes fan enjoyment.

I still love freestyle, and enjoy watching it, but I do wish various scoring criteria were more objective, or at least less confusing.  Whether that's even possible (without diminishing the style itself), I don't know. 

And whether escapes and stall points are appropriately scored is beyond the scope of my comment.

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