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Antitroll2828

How does Flo not hire ...

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2 hours ago, jon said:

Lol you've got to be kidding!

 > "THE BEST RTC IN AMERICA IS...?"

 > "MY FAVORITE WRESTLING MEME PAGE IS...?"

 > "WHAT'S MORE DANGEROUS? A. BO/NOLF B. DT/RUTH"

 > "WHO WINS 149 THIS YEAR?"

 > "BURROUGHS WILL TAKE DOWN ASKREN _____ TIMES"

Stylized to match the final example: FLO SOCIAL MEDIA IS L_ZY, SH_LLOW, SH_TTY.

They have a high engagement rate which is really the name of the game in social media. Whether you like it or not, it is very effective.

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You're entirely right. I'm not wrong either though. Poor form for Flo to post screenshots of others' tweets rather than linking to the original content.

Edited by jon

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2 hours ago, BobDole said:

I sent my resume, but Pyles denied me. I believe it's age discrimination. I am going to file a lawsuit.

Second time I have seen age discrimination as a topic on this forum this summer. Your comment being a parody, of course. The other not so much. 

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14 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Yea pretty much what I was getting at..I like Flo overall and I like FRL normally I just think some things in these higher levels matches go right over there heads.i wasn’t saying anyone needs to go I just think it would be beneficial all round If they added someone that can give more of a wrestling take opposed to a fan and slightly biased fan at that 

It wasn't clear that is what you were getting at in the OP.  I think Stieber would be great doing match breakdown segments.  This could be like what ESPN does in the detail segment with Kobe Bryant in basketball and Peyton Manning in football.  Flo does these kinds of things with Mike Mal's videos.   I don't think Stieber would be as good as a regular host.  And I don't think he would have any authority or greater insight for setting the dispute you brought up regarding scoring that sequence.   ESPN doesn't bring in Kobe Bryant to explain why something was called a common foul instead of a flagrant 1 no do they bring in Peyton Manning for a rules interpretation as to why pass interference was or was not called.  

I think Nomad might be better suited to field for rules interpretation than Stieber.  I am pretty sure Nomad has read the UWW rulebook.  I am not sure Stieber or anyone on the 2019 US World Team has.  CP interviewed Stieber on the original Yianni-Zain Final X matches.  He asked him about the disputed scoring sequence.  He said he thought 2-2 was "probably the right score."  But he also said he "doesn't know the rules."  He was more even handed in talking about it than maybe the FRL guys and definitely the fans on this board, but he didn't offer any greater insight than either.  It's not like Sylvestri (UWW head of officials) rescoring the match or weighing in.  Here is the video if you missed it  https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6517160-logan-stieber-on-retirement-decision-future-yianni-zain

What was ridiculous about FRL 403 was that no one out of Nomad, CP, and Bratke seemed to be able to understand how anyone could have scored that 2-0 for Retherford despite it being the official scoring or they did but just wanted Willie to explain it for them anyway, but he clearly wasn't up to the task.  So it turned into them badgering him about something they already understood (or should have) and didn't want to admit.

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I have been traveling all week so didn't hear the podcasts.  I saw this interesting and active thread on the way to the airport, and downloaded 403 so I could listen to it on the plane.  

I have criticized Flo multiple times on other issues (for sometimes frequent IT glitches, poor live match announcing, cream puff interviews, etc.) but thought this podcast was just fine.  

I heard no bias.  The 2-and-2 proponents had their rationale and explained it well (agree with it or not).  Nothing they said or how they said it indicated anti-PSU or pro-Yianni shading.  In fact Pyles did a very good job late in the broadcast of saying, of course they show a lot of Yianni content since he's extremely accessible to Flo and due to his personality that's a great fit.  Pyles even volunteered that he didn't think PSU should give more access since their style is obviously working.

I also thought that the arguing on this episode was a lot more palatable to listen to than the crap on a lot of ESPN and other yellfests.  Each person obviously felt strongly about their position.  I thought that the 2-and-2 guys were willing to listen to the other side and were open to dialog and possible convincing.  There were some raised voices, but not out of control anger.  And Pyles did a good job of guiding it along as moderator.  

Having a former high level wrestler could add to Flo's commentary and analysis, but only if they are knowledgeable, articulate, and committed to the job, and utilized in a productive way by the website.  Most (not all) of the former athletes I seen on TV, however, detract more than add to the broadcasts they are on. 

I listen every day to a favorite baseball team's broadcast and simply shake my head at how little the former player they have in the booth contributes and how much he detracts from the broadcast; his knowledge occasionally produces a nugget, but his communication skills are so bad that the vast majority of his comments are worthless -- he just isn't any good at his job. 

I think when the Flo guys are utilized correctly (match announcing vs interviews vs podcasts vs documentaries vs analysis, there is a big spectrum in terms of who is good at what) they are generally pretty good at their jobs.  

Flo has added and adds greatly to the wrestling community, I feel lucky to be able to enjoy the site.  Because it's contributed so much, though, it's taken on a very big role in the sport, which means that it's important that it should be criticized and held accountable where appropriate.  I just wouldn't put FRL 403 in that column.  

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On 9/4/2019 at 5:50 PM, TBar1977 said:

One, I never used the word "attack" that you are ascribing here. Two, I am only talking about Pyles, not the entire Flo org. He may be subconsciously biased, but he's still biased imo. He can deny that is the case. No big deal. It is still the case, imo, and anyone can disagree. 

Finally, I don't see any grand master plan of bias. That isn't how most biases work. Most of the time it just creeps into a person and they can't even see it in themselves. Its on a subconscious level. 

Although I agree with everything you say about bias, I'm not at all convinced CP is biased against PSU.  If anything, I think it's probably the opposite, as his respect for the program is obvious, and anything but an afterthought.

The 2-2 scoring discussion wasn't even as much about Zain & Yianni as it was the specific sequence itself; it wasn't mentioned in the context of Yianni being robbed, or not getting a fair shot, and CP's admiration for Zain was evident.  Nor was it 45 or even 30 minutes, but 15, and would've been 5, but for Willie's continual rants.  I love the guy, but he ended up boxed into an untenable claim, and all the bluster in the world wasn't going to obscure its absurdity. 

There are also myriad reasons why Koll didn't challenge an early, ambiguous, exchange, and I doubt any of us expected the scoring to end there.

Regardless, the fact remains that Yianni, knowing he was losing, could not score, and couldn't even really get to Zain's legs.  The difference was tiny, but Zain was the better wrestler on Monday, and I doubt CP would disagree.  Whether that will persist, we'll have to wait and see.

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All joking aside, we are aware that we have areas of improvement.  Of course we can improve in some areas. not everything is always as buttoned up as we would like. sometimes it's frustrating for us, too. (i wasn't thrilled with the production for Yianni-Zain, for instance).
As far as critiquing 'non-elites' - i'm not sure i follow. can you provide examples? Generally speaking, i think there's a fine line between being respectful and giving our genuine opinions, which the sport deserves. If we don't call it as we see it and assessing things as they are to protect feelings (which has been a problem in wrestling media (and wrestling gov't) for a long time, than what's the point. that being said, i don't recall an instance where we've been over-the-top critical of athletes. 


Off the top of my head, a lot of the tone of the “bad losses” discussions can be pretty distasteful to my ears. As in, “he lost to freaking so and so!” Comes off the cuff, but there are some really unnecessary barbs there.

The way Pyles speaks to and about athletes, especially foreign ones or US guys who compete for other teams, has been out of pocket many a time, and the xenophobia has really turned me off to the podcast.

I agree that the wrestling media has been too deferential in the past, but that has more to do with coaches and elite guys who, as we agree, are more fair game. It’s not all direct criticism either, though . I think the pedestaling of middle school and high school kids while barely covering some national team members and the entire Greco and WomenFS teams is pretty flagrantly disrespectful to the adults, and not very healthy for the kids either.

Again, I think Flo is a massive boon to the sport, and it’s the best value I get of anything I buy all year.




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10 hours ago, Fishbane said:

It wasn't clear that is what you were getting at in the OP.  I think Stieber would be great doing match breakdown segments.  This could be like what ESPN does in the detail segment with Kobe Bryant in basketball and Peyton Manning in football.  Flo does these kinds of things with Mike Mal's videos.   I don't think Stieber would be as good as a regular host.  And I don't think he would have any authority or greater insight for setting the dispute you brought up regarding scoring that sequence.   ESPN doesn't bring in Kobe Bryant to explain why something was called a common foul instead of a flagrant 1 no do they bring in Peyton Manning for a rules interpretation as to why pass interference was or was not called.  

I think Nomad might be better suited to field for rules interpretation than Stieber.  I am pretty sure Nomad has read the UWW rulebook.  I am not sure Stieber or anyone on the 2019 US World Team has.  CP interviewed Stieber on the original Yianni-Zain Final X matches.  He asked him about the disputed scoring sequence.  He said he thought 2-2 was "probably the right score."  But he also said he "doesn't know the rules."  He was more even handed in talking about it than maybe the FRL guys and definitely the fans on this board, but he didn't offer any greater insight than either.  It's not like Sylvestri (UWW head of officials) rescoring the match or weighing in.  Here is the video if you missed it  https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6517160-logan-stieber-on-retirement-decision-future-yianni-zain

What was ridiculous about FRL 403 was that no one out of Nomad, CP, and Bratke seemed to be able to understand how anyone could have scored that 2-0 for Retherford despite it being the official scoring or they did but just wanted Willie to explain it for them anyway, but he clearly wasn't up to the task.  So it turned into them badgering him about something they already understood (or should have) and didn't want to admit.

Although I agree with much of what you said, I think you're mis-characterizing CP, Kyle and Nomad's argument.  They were more than able to understand why it was scored as it was, but disagreed with Willie's assertion that Yianni initiating the sequence was preposterous.

They merely claimed that Yianni hooking Zain's leg altered his crotch lift, and exposed him first.  Although they all thought it should be scored 2-2, they understood why it wasn't, and simply disagreed with the call.  They didn't even disagree emphatically.

But for Willie's periodic rants, it would have been a five minute discussion.

Finally, as long as the individual in question is a rabid PSU homer, Antitroll couldn't care less who Flo hires, and largely admitted as much earlier in the thread.  

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6 hours ago, whaletail said:

Although I agree with much of what you said, I think you're mis-characterizing CP, Kyle and Nomad's argument.  They were more than able to understand why it was scored as it was, but disagreed with Willie's assertion that Yianni initiating the sequence was preposterous.

They merely claimed that Yianni hooking Zain's leg altered his crotch lift, and exposed him first.  Although they all thought it should be scored 2-2, they understood why it wasn't, and simply disagreed with the call.  They didn't even disagree emphatically.

But for Willie's periodic rants, it would have been a five minute discussion.

Finally, as long as the individual in question is a rabid PSU homer, Antitroll couldn't care less who Flo hires, and largely admitted as much earlier in the thread.  

I did not view Willie's comments as "ranting' at all, just stating a simple fact. The three  others disagreed with him but I felt their disagreement was wrong on the facts. I guess we come at this from a point of disagreement with what actually happened in the sequence and that colors our views.

My main point though is making a big deal about it at that moment in time. After all Zain had to go thru this summer I think their emphasis would have been better placed on how competitive the match was, or how great the defense was, or how much action their was for such a low scoring match. It seemed to me that it was placed on the idea that Yianni go 2 points there which would obviously change the score. 

Logan Stieber's comments on Rudis were much better, and the Track wrestling article (hard to compare a written article to a podcast, I get that) was much better. Both placed the emphasis on the good, not on some made up scoring controversy where it seems to me they are wrong on the facts anyway. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

I did not view Willie's comments as "ranting' at all, just stating a simple fact. The three  others disagreed with him but I felt their disagreement was wrong on the facts. I guess we come at this from a point of disagreement with what actually happened in the sequence and that colors our views.

My main point though is making a big deal about it at that moment in time. After all Zain had to go thru this summer I think their emphasis would have been better placed on how competitive the match was, or how great the defense was, or how much action their was for such a low scoring match. It seemed to me that it was placed on the idea that Yianni go 2 points there which would obviously change the score. 

Logan Stieber's comments on Rudis were much better, and the Track wrestling article (hard to compare a written article to a podcast, I get that) was much better. Both placed the emphasis on the good, not on some made up scoring controversy where it seems to me they are wrong on the facts anyway. 

Rant may not be the right description, but he was clearly shouting his opinion, and it was an extreme opinion.  Although I think the refs probably got it right, it's not preposterous to suggest that Yianni initiated the exchange when he looked the leg.  Again, I'm not sure I agree, but it's not a preposterous opinion.  Refs have scored similar sequences 2-2, and if fact, when Sylvestri re-scored the original match 2, it appears he scored the final controversial sequence 2-2 (notwithstanding LBJ's claim that the rulebook actually precludes such 2-2 scores).  While the two sequences clearly aren't identical, they both feature initiation ambiguity.

As for broader discussion itself, I think your criticism is reasonable, but the underlying problem wasn't, in my opinion, bias.  I think it was just an error in judgment not to effusively congratulate Zain beforehand.

That said, in their heart of hearts, I think all three, and probably even all four, wanted Yianni to win just a little bit more than they wanted Zain to win.  Yianni's amazing summer, coupled with Flo's consistent access and his carefree, but determined, personality and charisma endeared him to many of us, and the FRL hosts aren't immune.  Nonetheless, we're not discussing a zero sum game here, and I'm sure all four would have preferred both wrestle at Worlds.  Moreover, when Zain finally did win, I think they were genuinely happy for him.

 

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3 hours ago, cjc007 said:

The flo guys should take a college level broadcasting course if they want to be taken seriously.


Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

It is a thought,  but you made me think of the BTN when they broadcast with University kids........pretty weak....in addition most of them know little or nothing about wrestling .....you might as well put the TV on mute....again, at least we get to see the matches though.

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13 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

It is a thought,  but you made me think of the BTN when they broadcast with University kids........pretty weak....in addition most of them know little or nothing about wrestling .....you might as well put the TV on mute....again, at least we get to see the matches though.

University kids have offputting personalities? I know, I know -- different strokes, different folks. But I say it's a fair question. Flo product more than just coverage. Grating commentary, shallow social media undermine the experience for me and I bet for many other persons. Halo effect diminishing!

If it's the case that Flobros' broadcasting no more polished than that of students then well that's saddening.

Edited by jon

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University kids have offputting personalities? I know, I know -- different strokes, different folks. But I say it's a fair question. Flo product more than just coverage. Grating commentary, shallow social media undermine the experience for me and I bet for many other persons. Halo effect diminishing!
If it's the case that Flobros' broadcasting no more polished than that of students then well that's saddening.
They need help with voice inflection if they want to be considered professional.

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1 minute ago, cjc007 said:

They need help with voice inflection if they want to be considered professional.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

Lol. Flo wants to be considered professional? I doubt it.

"literally over one million followers" -- why strive for something more?

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On 9/6/2019 at 8:06 AM, TBar1977 said:

So you think that after all Zain went thru this summer that after he again wins the world team spot for the second time, that the very next FRL show should immediately go with 45 minutes of whining about the officiating in a way that strongly suggests Yianni was robbed and, with that, Zain's win is again tainted? 

That episode was misplaced. 

That in no way demonstrates an anti-psu bias. 

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On 9/6/2019 at 11:59 AM, jon said:

Discrimination? Lol you're not so far from the truth. You see his great idea that UWW should separate Iran + Israel entrants? 

 

This is a dumb take by Pyles. I think it is coming from ignorance of the ramifications of that change, what it implicitly supports, etc. 

With that said from a wrestling perspective it makes sense. He is wrong here, but it is more about being misguided on thing soutside of wrestling than within. Not a huge deal imo

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On 9/6/2019 at 1:02 PM, Husker_Du said:

maybe our social media just isn't for you. 

people love it. we're quit successful with it, and there's much more to it than your above examples.

for sure there is the occasional post that i don't like, but for the most part, it's engaging and interesting and the results speak for themselves.

don't expect a change in our social media methods any time soon. 

You guys do a great job targeting a certain audience on social media. As a millennial in my early 30s, some of the stuff that is clearly meant to appeal to Gen Z seems lame/unprofessional to me, but that makes sense. You aren’t targeting me with every post. 

I believe I bring the average age on this board down, so it isn’t shocking to see some folks here get annoyed with your social media posts. We aren’t a good example of who you are trying to engage with on social media however. 

Your engagement rates seem extremely high. Your social media makes a major impact on the sport in the US. 

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4 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

It is a thought,  but you made me think of the BTN when they broadcast with University kids........pretty weak....in addition most of them know little or nothing about wrestling .....you might as well put the TV on mute....again, at least we get to see the matches though.

That sh%t is the worst, especially when two ranked teams are wrestling.  Iowa usually has someone competent broadcasting the early weekday matches, and almost all PSU duals are on the halo Friday night/Sunday afternoon broadcasts, but otherwise, it's all student broadcasts.  I don't even bother subscribing to BTN Plus anymore, and mostly for that reason.

"The Purdue wrestler is trying to run behind his opponent and grab him around the waist, oh wait, now he's trying to wrap his arms around his right leg, and lift it up."

Oh Jesus Christ.

Every mat return is another takedown, escapes are often ignored altogether, and when they inevitably cut to the female matside reporter, the whole charade gets even worse ("Speaking with head coach Tom Ryan, he told me he always wants his wrestlers to give their best effort.  Back to you, Mark!").

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3 hours ago, Housebuye said:

This is a dumb take by Pyles. I think it is coming from ignorance of the ramifications of that change, what it implicitly supports, etc. 

With that said from a wrestling perspective it makes sense. He is wrong here, but it is more about being misguided on thing soutside of wrestling than within. Not a huge deal imo

What specific ramifications does it ignore, and what does it implicitly support?

Although I haven't exhaustively reviewed the issue, separation effectively diminishes the political encroachment into sport that occurs whenever Israeli and Iranian wrestlers meet.

And since the Iranian wrestlers aren't even given the chance to wrestle in those situations, why penalize them unnecessarily?  They're not forfeiting of their own accord, and have no control over the policy.

I just don't see an immediate downside to separating Israeli and Iranian wrestlers, and I don't see how such a policy implies any sort of political stance at all.

Personally, I'd much rather see Yazdani Charati competing for a medal than knocked out of Worlds (or the Olympics), especially when the latter is so easily avoided.

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