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Iranian Judo World Champion ordered to default to Israeli

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Nom, did you read the article?  This situation was significant because he was ordered to default in the semis and competed anyway.  A brave move by the athlete, although probably ill advised.  

Anyway, I missed that there was a couple post on this specific situation in the 43 pages of Iran thread but I appreciate your work as a moderator on this site. 

 

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On 9/8/2019 at 5:21 PM, nom said:

Our Iranian friends on this board have been discussing this in the Iran news thread.  Plenty of info over there to review. 

Although it would be good to not contaminate that thread with the typical types of posts other threads get.

 

 

What an excellent term to use: "contaminating a thread"  It's my number one gripe about forums. 

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34 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Couldn't the IJF and IOC avoid all this by having Israel compete as something else like Israeli Jerusalem along with using a different flag and not playing the national anthem of Israel?

They could have Iran compete as another country. Why does Israel have to compromise?

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2 hours ago, The Genius said:

No, they will take his children and lock them in a cage on the border. Sorry, wrong country.

Only if his children were brought into the competition illegally.

But it wasn't an issue when the prior ayatollah(s) implemented that process.

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7 minutes ago, PAFAN01 said:

They could have Iran compete as another country. Why does Israel have to compromise?

I don't think that would solve the problem if just Iran changed.  The problem is Iran doesn't recognize Israel as a country.  If Iran started competing as Iranian Tehran or Persian Tehran or something like that they might still feel like they were recognizing Israel as a country.  Maybe they could both change.  

I'm not sure how the IOC decided which country out of the Republic of China (Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (mainland China) had to use a different name, but it ended up with Taiwan competing as Chinese Taipei.  They can't use their national anthem or national flag at the Olympics.  The IOC even changed their charter to accommodate the PRC and the change. 

If the IOC was serious about keeping politics out of sport they could stop having athletes compete on teams based on political boundaries.

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7 hours ago, Fishbane said:

I don't think that would solve the problem if just Iran changed.  The problem is Iran doesn't recognize Israel as a country.  If Iran started competing as Iranian Tehran or Persian Tehran or something like that they might still feel like they were recognizing Israel as a country.  Maybe they could both change.  

I'm not sure how the IOC decided which country out of the Republic of China (Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China (mainland China) had to use a different name, but it ended up with Taiwan competing as Chinese Taipei.  They can't use their national anthem or national flag at the Olympics.  The IOC even changed their charter to accommodate the PRC and the change. 

If the IOC was serious about keeping politics out of sport they could stop having athletes compete on teams based on political boundaries.

Maybe because mainland China is colloquially known as China, while Taiwan is colloquially known as Taiwan.  So it makes sense to do that to avoid confusion.  

 

The way to solve this problem is to require Iran compete against Israel (as is currently the rule), and if they refuse to do so, they don't get to compete in the world championships/olympics.  So the IOC should investigate this incident, and if they find evidence that their sport minister did order withdrawal from competition as has been reported, all Iranian Judokus should be unable to compete in the 2020 olympics. If the instances of boycott continue, the entire federation regardless of sport should eventually be banned. I believe such an action would eventually lead Iran to end its policy. No single country is more important than the overall spirit of uniting under sport for the olympics, especially not Iran, which likely accounts for a very minimal source of the IOC's revenue.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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4 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Maybe because mainland China is colloquially known as China, while Taiwan is colloquially known as Taiwan.  So it makes sense to do that to avoid confusion.  

 

The way to solve this problem is to require Iran compete against Israel (as is currently the rule), and if they refuse to do so, they don't get to compete in the world championships/olympics.  So the IOC should investigate this incident, and if they find evidence that their sport minister did order withdrawal from competition as has been reported, all Iranian Judokus should be unable to compete in the 2020 olympics. If the instances of boycott continue, the entire federation regardless of sport should eventually be banned. I believe such an action would eventually lead Iran to end its policy. No single country is more important than the overall spirit of uniting under sport for the olympics, especially not Iran, which likely accounts for a very minimal source of the IOC's revenue.  

So you are in favor of the USA being banned from the Olympics/World Championships for refusing to participate in the 1980 Summer Olympics?

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13 minutes ago, jchapman said:

So you are in favor of the USA being banned from the Olympics/World Championships for refusing to participate in the 1980 Summer Olympics?

Yes, they should have been banned until they were willing to compete again. Just like how I think Iran should be until they are willing to compete with all participating countries. If the IOC imposes a ban on Olympic competition until Iran demonstrates that it has changed its policy, the policy will quickly come to an end. Every other country in the Middle East is willing to compete-time to hold Iran to a basic standard of respect for Olympic principles. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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4 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Maybe because mainland China is colloquially known as China, while Taiwan is colloquially known as Taiwan.  So it makes sense to do that to avoid confusion.  

The flag and anthem were creating confusion too?  

4 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The way to solve this problem is to require Iran compete against Israel (as is currently the rule), and if they refuse to do so, they don't get to compete in the world championships/olympics.  So the IOC should investigate this incident, and if they find evidence that their sport minister did order withdrawal from competition as has been reported, all Iranian Judokus should be unable to compete in the 2020 olympics. If the instances of boycott continue, the entire federation regardless of sport should eventually be banned. 

That only solves the problem if Iran competes against them. Otherwise it wouldn’t solve the problem of Iran refusing to compete against Israel and create a new problem of Iran not competing in the world championships and olympics.  On a whole losing Iran (which has won far more Olympic medals than Israel) would be more significant for the Olympics from a competitive standpoint than maintaining the status quo. 

In some ways Iran is more serious about the ban now then they had been.  Israel actually played Iran in soccer in Tehran in the 1974 Asia games but a few years ago Iran banned two players from the national soccer team after they played for a Greek club against a Israeli club which is crazy.   So I think what you suggest wouldn’t solve the problem it would just create a new one.

4 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

No single country is more important than the overall spirit of uniting under sport for the olympics, especially not Iran, which likely accounts for a very minimal source of the IOC's revenue.  

Tell that to Chinese Taipei. You won’t be able to find it on a map.  So the IOC makes a political point over Iran but yields to PRC over Taiwan because they have more money and are willing to spend it to host the games?  Basically pay for the IOC to put on their event so the IOC can make $$.  

Going back to soccer are you sure it is just one country?  There is a reason that Israel competes in UEFA in soccer.  Many of those countries that expelled them from AFC just don’t care anymore but then again many of the countries in the Middle East weren’t in AFC at the time.  I have no idea how often Israel crosses paths with them in individual sports like judo or team sports which might be viewed differently.   

If the IOC is going to ban Iran for not fighting Israel in judo then they should let Chinese Taipei compete under their official flag, using their official national anthem, and calling themselves whatever they want.  The IOC should also make FIFA move Israel back to AFC as they run the Olympic soccer competition. 

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19 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

The flag and anthem were creating confusion too?  

That only solves the problem if Iran competes against them. Otherwise it wouldn’t solve the problem of Iran refusing to compete against Israel and create a new problem of Iran not competing in the world championships and olympics.  On a whole losing Iran (which has won far more Olympic medals than Israel) would be more significant for the Olympics from a competitive standpoint than maintaining the status quo. 

In some ways Iran is more serious about the ban now then they had been.  Israel actually played Iran in soccer in Tehran in the 1974 Asia games but a few years ago Iran banned two players from the national soccer team after they played for a Greek club against a Israeli club which is crazy.   So I think what you suggest wouldn’t solve the problem it would just create a new one.

Tell that to Chinese Taipei. You won’t be able to find it on a map.  So the IOC makes a political point over Iran but yields to PRC over Taiwan because they have more money and are willing to spend it to host the games?  Basically pay for the IOC to put on their event so the IOC can make $$.  

Going back to soccer are you sure it is just one country?  There is a reason that Israel competes in UEFA in soccer.  Many of those countries that expelled them from AFC just don’t care anymore but then again many of the countries in the Middle East weren’t in AFC at the time.  I have no idea how often Israel crosses paths with them in individual sports like judo or team sports which might be viewed differently.   

If the IOC is going to ban Iran for not fighting Israel in judo then they should let Chinese Taipei compete under their official flag, using their official national anthem, and calling themselves whatever they want.  The IOC should also make FIFA move Israel back to AFC as they run the Olympic soccer competition. 

“What about Chinese Taipei’s flag” does not justify Iran’s disgraceful policy. Find me a country that won’t compete against another for political reasons and I will agree with you. Iran either needs to accept the principles of the Olympics or choose to not participate. 

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5 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Maybe because mainland China is colloquially known as China, while Taiwan is colloquially known as Taiwan.  So it makes sense to do that to avoid confusion.  

 

The way to solve this problem is to require Iran compete against Israel (as is currently the rule), and if they refuse to do so, they don't get to compete in the world championships/olympics.  So the IOC should investigate this incident, and if they find evidence that their sport minister did order withdrawal from competition as has been reported, all Iranian Judokus should be unable to compete in the 2020 olympics. If the instances of boycott continue, the entire federation regardless of sport should eventually be banned. I believe such an action would eventually lead Iran to end its policy. No single country is more important than the overall spirit of uniting under sport for the olympics, especially not Iran, which likely accounts for a very minimal source of the IOC's revenue.  

While you are at it, have FIFA stop putting Israel in the Europe group so as to not piss off the Arab countries.

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20 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

“What about Chinese Taipei’s flag” does not justify Iran’s disgraceful policy. Find me a country that won’t compete against another for political reasons and I will agree with you. Iran either needs to accept the principles of the Olympics or choose to not participate. 

I don’t understand your first sentence.  It doesn’t make any sense.   I am saying the IOC should not pick and choose which countries they want to strong arm into accepting the sovereignty of another nation when it comes to competing in the olympics.

Literally half of Asia wouldn’t compete against Israel in soccer.  Even Japan and Taiwan boycotted when Israel hosted the Asian soccer championships.  How many countries in the Middle East have played a soccer match against Israel in the past 50 years?  Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar,  Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Yemen - 0 games.   Should FIFA/IOC ban them until they demonstrate they have changed their stance by playing Israel in soccer or broaden that to every country in the AFC that voted for their expulsion or abstained in the 70s?

If Iran wants to continue forfeiting to Israel I think it is lame but their choice.  If they take a hard line stance on Iran with this then I think it would be more about it being Iran than what they are doing otherwise USA would have been stripped of hosting the 1984 games, Chines Taipei would get to compete under their official flag, and Israel would be playing soccer in Asia.  Don’t pick and choose and only choose when it’s Iran.  If IJF and UWW wanted to keep politics out of their sports they would have the world championships as a competition with the top 64 wrestler/judokas per weight instead of the best wrestler/judoka at a particular weight from a particular NOC that doesn’t offend other NOCs which are willing to pay to host the olympics.  

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

 Find me a country that won’t compete against another for political reasons and I will agree with you.

I agree that it is wrong for the Iran government to ban its athletes to compete against Israel.  Majority of the fans, athletes and coaches are against this stupid policy.

But, I will give you a few cases of countries that did not compete against other countries for political reasons

  1. Several countries, including US and Iran, did not participate in the 1980 Olympics in Moscow
  2. Several eastern block countries boycotted the 1984 Olympics
  3. Two countries, US and Iran, have refused to issue visas to athletes for competitions that they were hosting.  In the case of US, they have made the athletes wait in immigration for hours before they would let them in, even though they had visas

 

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

 Iran either needs to accept the principles of the Olympics or choose to not participate. 

Agreed. Iran should go around to other countries and demand they spend exorbitant amounts of money on developing infrastructure for their events and provide all their top delegates with lavish expensive accommodations and then leave after a 16 days and watch as the host city goes through a decade of economic ruin!

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1 hour ago, irani said:

I agree that it is wrong for the Iran government to ban its athletes to compete against Israel.  Majority of the fans, athletes and coaches are against this stupid policy.

But, I will give you a few cases of countries that did not compete against other countries for political reasons

  1. Several countries, including US and Iran, did not participate in the 1980 Olympics in Moscow
  2. Several eastern block countries boycotted the 1984 Olympics
  3. Two countries, US and Iran, have refused to issue visas to athletes for competitions that they were hosting.  In the case of US, they have made the athletes wait in immigration for hours before they would let them in, even though they had visas

 

#1 and #2 do not apply.  After the boycott those countries stop boycotting and competed against each other, and it is slightly different that they boycotted an event not a country.  As soon as Iran stops forbidding competitions against Israel any restriction placed on them will be removed.

#3 is very valid. I am a little hazy on the details, but recall the incident.  Didn't the same thing happen for the world cup in the US?

The US should have been investigated and unless there was strong reason prove for the visa issues, I think it would be fair to sanction the US Wrestling with something like not allowing them to host World Championships/ World Cups for a number of years.

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