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Iranian Judo World Champion ordered to default to Israeli

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18 minutes ago, Jim L said:

#1 and #2 do not apply.  After the boycott those countries stop boycotting and competed against each other, and it is slightly different that they boycotted an event not a country.  As soon as Iran stops forbidding competitions against Israel any restriction placed on them will be removed.

#3 is very valid. I am a little hazy on the details, but recall the incident.  Didn't the same thing happen for the world cup in the US?

The US should have been investigated and unless there was strong reason prove for the visa issues, I think it would be fair to sanction the US Wrestling with something like not allowing them to host World Championships/ World Cups for a number of years.

I respectfully disagree about 1 and 2 not applying.  These are clear cases of countries using politics to avoid competing in athletics.  I agree they are different, but it's the same crime

 

There has been more than one incident of US detaining Iranian athletes.  You probably heard about the world cup incident a few years ago.  They just did it again at a volleyball league of nations https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2019/07/08/iran-volleyball-team-detained-ohare-international-airport/

Edited by irani

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2 hours ago, irani said:

I agree that it is wrong for the Iran government to ban its athletes to compete against Israel.  Majority of the fans, athletes and coaches are against this stupid policy.

But, I will give you a few cases of countries that did not compete against other countries for political reasons

  1. Several countries, including US and Iran, did not participate in the 1980 Olympics in Moscow
  2. Several eastern block countries boycotted the 1984 Olympics
  3. Two countries, US and Iran, have refused to issue visas to athletes for competitions that they were hosting.  In the case of US, they have made the athletes wait in immigration for hours before they would let them in, even though they had visas

 

4) North Korea and its allies (Cuba, ect) boycotted the 1988 Olympics.

5) USAW did not send a team to the 2002 freestyle world championships held in Tehran.

6) In 1968 Asia Cup qualification (soccer) Kuwait and Afghanistan refused to play Israel resulting in Israel automatically qualifying for the Asia Cup hosted by Iran (Iran did play Israel in Tehran in this competition)

7) In the 1964 Asia Cup hosted by Israel 11 of 18 nations withdrew from qualification in protest including Afghanistan, Cambodia, Ceylon, Indonesia, Iran, Japan, Myanmar, Pakistan, Philippines, Republic of China (Taiwan), and Singapore.  Israel won the tournament its only confederation championship.

8) In 1958 world cup qualifying Israel was drawn to play Turkey, but Turkey withdrew and refused to play them. In the next qualification round a 4 team group had Israel, Egypt, Sudan, and Indonesia.  Egypt and Indonesia withdrew rather than play Israel.  Israel and Sudan advanced as the top two teams to a playoff for the right to go to the World Cup.  Sudan refused to play Israel so they qualified automatically for the World Cup or they should have.  Since FIFA viewed this as an embarrassment FIFA decided Israel had to play Wales instead and Wales won the playoff.  

9) In 1974 Kuwait proposed kicking Israel out of the AFC which passed by a vote of 17 in favor, 13 against, and 6 abstentions. (Many of the middle eastern Arab countries joined the AFC in 1970 and voted in favour)

10) ROC/Taiwan/Chinese Taipei had to compete in the Oceania Confederation (OFC) from 1975 to 1989 because of the political conflict with the PRC.  They also withdrew from 1958 world cup qualification after being drawn in a group with PRC.

11) Has ROC/Taiwan/Chinese Taipei ever played a soccer game against either Japan or China (PRC)?

Edited by Fishbane

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7 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

 

9) In 1974 Kuwait proposed kicking Israel out of the AFC which passed by a vote of 17 in favor, 13 against, and 6 abstentions. (Many of the middle eastern Arab countries joined the AFC in 1970 and voted in favour)

 

I would love to know how Iran voted, by the way.  This was long before the Iranian revolution

My guess is they voted against or abstained

 

The 1968 was not Asia cup qualification, but the actual Asia Cup.  Iran and Israel played in the final, and Iran won 2-1.  I remember listening to it on the radio as a 10 year old.  It was not televised in my city

 

Iran Israel asia Cup 1968

Edited by irani

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38 minutes ago, Jim L said:

#1 and #2 do not apply.  After the boycott those countries stop boycotting and competed against each other, and it is slightly different that they boycotted an event not a country.  As soon as Iran stops forbidding competitions against Israel any restriction placed on them will be removed.

A country boycotting an event hosted by a country they don't like is boycotting the event not the country?  I disagree and I am sure that in boycotting the 1980 games the US effectively forfeited more matches to Russian athletes than Iran has to Israeli athletes totaled up over the past 20 years.

Here is a wikipedia page with a list of instances where Iran is suspected of forfeiting to avoid Israel.  Though I am sure this isn't an exhaustive list it has 32 instances over the past 20 years.  Iran is not the only national to have done this as there are also 12 others. 

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34 minutes ago, irani said:

I would love to know how Iran voted, by the way.  This was long before the Iranian revolution

My guess is they voted against or abstained

 

The 1968 was not Asia cup qualification, but the actual Asia Cup.  Iran and Israel played in the final, and Iran won 2-1.  I remember listening to it on the radio as a 10 year old.  It was not televised in my city

 

Iran Israel asia Cup 1968

I have no idea how Iran voted in that.  In that same session the AFC admitted PRC and kicked out Taiwan. No idea on how that vote went either. 

In the 1968 Asia cup Kuwait and Afghanistan refused to play Israel in the qualification.  This might not have been an outright refusal to play Israel.  There may have been some distinction in that they didn't want to go to Israel to play as the qualification format had home and away games against all the other teams in the group.  Kuwait and Afghanistan might have requested to play at a neutral location which was rejected so they forfeited and Israel advanced to the actual Asia Cup which was hosted by Iran.  I don't think any nation forfeited to Israel in the cup proper, but they may have held the same distinction that they are willing to play Israel in soccer just not travel to Israel to do it. 

I am sure some people on here will look at that and say that is not boycotting the country just boycotting events that take place in the country and thus entirely different from Iran refusing to allow their judoka to compete against and Israeli judoka at a neutral site. Kuwait and Afghanistan should not have been punished and were not but Iran needs a ban.

Edited by Fishbane

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5 hours ago, Fishbane said:

I don’t understand your first sentence.  It doesn’t make any sense.   I am saying the IOC should not pick and choose which countries they want to strong arm into accepting the sovereignty of another nation when it comes to competing in the olympics.

Literally half of Asia wouldn’t compete against Israel in soccer.  Even Japan and Taiwan boycotted when Israel hosted the Asian soccer championships.  How many countries in the Middle East have played a soccer match against Israel in the past 50 years?  Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Qatar,  Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Yemen - 0 games.   Should FIFA/IOC ban them until they demonstrate they have changed their stance by playing Israel in soccer or broaden that to every country in the AFC that voted for their expulsion or abstained in the 70s?

If Iran wants to continue forfeiting to Israel I think it is lame but their choice.  If they take a hard line stance on Iran with this then I think it would be more about it being Iran than what they are doing otherwise USA would have been stripped of hosting the 1984 games, Chines Taipei would get to compete under their official flag, and Israel would be playing soccer in Asia.  Don’t pick and choose and only choose when it’s Iran.  If IJF and UWW wanted to keep politics out of their sports they would have the world championships as a competition with the top 64 wrestler/judokas per weight instead of the best wrestler/judoka at a particular weight from a particular NOC that doesn’t offend other NOCs which are willing to pay to host the olympics.  

My first sentence is pointing out that Chinese Taipei’s flag has nothing to do with boycotting individual countries and you saying, “what about Chinese Taipei’s flag” doesn’t justify Iran’s actions. If more countries than Iran had this policy, the entire competition would be a joke with a bunch of random forfeits. It’s also against the spirit of the games to refuse to compete against a country because you disagree with them politically. The IOC must impose consequences for Iran disregarding the rules of competition. 

 

Iran has a very simple solution to this pressure from the IOC-send out an athlete to compete against Israel. 

 

And yes, banning travel for safety concerns or to comply with sanctions is very different from banning competition on a neutral site. If Chinese Taipei presently has the policy to forfeit to Chinese athletes, I would say they should be barred from competition as well. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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4 hours ago, Fishbane said:

4) North Korea and its allies (Cuba, ect) boycotted the 1988 Olympics.

5) USAW did not send a team to the 2002 freestyle world championships held in Tehran.

6) In 1968 Asia Cup qualification (soccer) Kuwait and Afghanistan refused to play Israel resulting in Israel automatically qualifying for the Asia Cup hosted by Iran (Iran did play Israel in Tehran in this competition)

7) In the 1964 Asia Cup hosted by Israel 11 of 18 nations withdrew from qualification in protest including Afghanistan, Cambodia, Ceylon, Indonesia, Iran, Japan, Myanmar, Pakistan, Philippines, Republic of China (Taiwan), and Singapore.  Israel won the tournament its only confederation championship.

8) In 1958 world cup qualifying Israel was drawn to play Turkey, but Turkey withdrew and refused to play them. In the next qualification round a 4 team group had Israel, Egypt, Sudan, and Indonesia.  Egypt and Indonesia withdrew rather than play Israel.  Israel and Sudan advanced as the top two teams to a playoff for the right to go to the World Cup.  Sudan refused to play Israel so they qualified automatically for the World Cup or they should have.  Since FIFA viewed this as an embarrassment FIFA decided Israel had to play Wales instead and Wales won the playoff.  

9) In 1974 Kuwait proposed kicking Israel out of the AFC which passed by a vote of 17 in favor, 13 against, and 6 abstentions. (Many of the middle eastern Arab countries joined the AFC in 1970 and voted in favour)

10) ROC/Taiwan/Chinese Taipei had to compete in the Oceania Confederation (OFC) from 1975 to 1989 because of the political conflict with the PRC.  They also withdrew from 1958 world cup qualification after being drawn in a group with PRC.

11) Has ROC/Taiwan/Chinese Taipei ever played a soccer game against either Japan or China (PRC)?

#5 was not a political statement.

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

My first sentence is pointing out that Chinese Taipei’s flag has nothing to do with boycotting individual countries and you saying, “what about Chinese Taipei’s flag” doesn’t justify Iran’s actions. If more countries than Iran had this policy, the entire competition would be a joke with a bunch of random forfeits. It’s also against the spirit of the games to refuse to compete against a country because you disagree with them politically. The IOC must impose consequences for Iran disregarding the rules of competition. 

 

Iran has a very simple solution to this pressure from the IOC-send out an athlete to compete against Israel. 

You are confused.  I am not trying to justify Iran's actions.  They are silly.  I am giving a justification for the IJF and IOC's lack of action.  Can you give justification for the IOC to bring the hammer down on Iran over this, but capitulate to PRC's threat of a boycott and not let ROC/Taiwan play their national anthem or use their flag?  Can you give justification for the IOC doing nothing to the USOC over the coordinated mass boycott of the 1980 games which disenfranchised far more athletes and turned the games into a joke?  Or better yet give any instance of any nation being punished by the IOC/IJF/FIFA/UWW with anything more significant than words for a boycott. 

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Just now, jchapman said:

#5 was not a political statement.

Well not attending wasn't a political statement but it had to do with politics.  US foreign policy upset many groups in Iran and there were anti-american groups planning to protest and making threats.  Iran said it was out of their hands to provide protection for the American delegation from the expected anti-American demonstrations.  One could argue Iran was making a political statement by refusing providing the necessary security.  

It's probably more equivalent to Argentina pulling out of their scheduled soccer friendly with Israel in Jerusalem last year than the others in the list.  

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

Well not attending wasn't a political statement but it had to do with politics.  US foreign policy upset many groups in Iran and there were anti-american groups planning to protest and making threats.  Iran said it was out of their hands to provide protection for the American delegation from the expected anti-American demonstrations.  One could argue Iran was making a political statement by refusing providing the necessary security.  

This had nothing to do with security or politics. It was simple. Lee Greenwood was booked to perform at the opening and closing ceremonies for this event, but the organizers overlooked his demand to wear Jadidi's low-cut singlet from 1996 for his 25 minute rendition of "God Bless the USA" and he pulled out and Team USA rightly left with him.

No one disrespects Lee Greenwood's demands!

irans-abbas-jadidi-reacts-after-being-de

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On 9/12/2019 at 12:33 PM, irani said:

I respectfully disagree about 1 and 2 not applying.  These are clear cases of countries using politics to avoid competing in athletics.  I agree they are different, but it's the same crime

 

There has been more than one incident of US detaining Iranian athletes.  You probably heard about the world cup incident a few years ago.  They just did it again at a volleyball league of nations https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2019/07/08/iran-volleyball-team-detained-ohare-international-airport/

Well even if they do apply, US and the Soviet Bloc did a one and down boycott of the other's event and so any sanctions that could have been levied would have been rescinded as soon as they played each other.

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23 hours ago, Fishbane said:

4) North Korea and its allies (Cuba, ect) boycotted the 1988 Olympics.

5) USAW did not send a team to the 2002 freestyle world championships held in Tehran.

6) In 1968 Asia Cup qualification (soccer) Kuwait and Afghanistan refused to play Israel resulting in Israel automatically qualifying for the Asia Cup hosted by Iran (Iran did play Israel in Tehran in this competition)

7) In the 1964 Asia Cup hosted by Israel 11 of 18 nations withdrew from qualification in protest including Afghanistan, Cambodia, Ceylon, Indonesia, Iran, Japan, Myanmar, Pakistan, Philippines, Republic of China (Taiwan), and Singapore.  Israel won the tournament its only confederation championship.

8) In 1958 world cup qualifying Israel was drawn to play Turkey, but Turkey withdrew and refused to play them. In the next qualification round a 4 team group had Israel, Egypt, Sudan, and Indonesia.  Egypt and Indonesia withdrew rather than play Israel.  Israel and Sudan advanced as the top two teams to a playoff for the right to go to the World Cup.  Sudan refused to play Israel so they qualified automatically for the World Cup or they should have.  Since FIFA viewed this as an embarrassment FIFA decided Israel had to play Wales instead and Wales won the playoff.  

9) In 1974 Kuwait proposed kicking Israel out of the AFC which passed by a vote of 17 in favor, 13 against, and 6 abstentions. (Many of the middle eastern Arab countries joined the AFC in 1970 and voted in favour)

10) ROC/Taiwan/Chinese Taipei had to compete in the Oceania Confederation (OFC) from 1975 to 1989 because of the political conflict with the PRC.  They also withdrew from 1958 world cup qualification after being drawn in a group with PRC.

11) Has ROC/Taiwan/Chinese Taipei ever played a soccer game against either Japan or China (PRC)?

A large part of Africa boycotted the 1976 Olympics because the New Zealand team was admitted that did not honor the world wide athletic boycott of South Africa.

 

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1 minute ago, Jim L said:

Well even if they do apply, US and the Soviet Bloc did a one and down boycott of the other's event and so any sanctions that could have been levied would have been rescinded as soon as they played each other.

That is correct. 

They are just an example of countries refusing to compete against another due to political reasons.  They were one time incidents.

I am not sure that sanctions would be rescinded as soon as the offending countries stop their bad behavior.  If the sanctions are meant to be punitive, they may for a certain period or until the offender gives up their bad actions, whichever comes last

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20 hours ago, Chet said:

This had nothing to do with security or politics. It was simple. Lee Greenwood was booked to perform at the opening and closing ceremonies for this event, but the organizers overlooked his demand to wear Jadidi's low-cut singlet from 1996 for his 25 minute rendition of "God Bless the USA" and he pulled out and Team USA rightly left with him.

No one disrespects Lee Greenwood's demands!

irans-abbas-jadidi-reacts-after-being-de

True security concerns can be used as cover for anything any time two countries don't get along or don't like each other.  The stated reason for the 1984 Soviet boycott was security concerns not you boycotted us.  My reason for including it was that lack of US participation was not for sporting reasons and anything else is politics.  Your clarification backs that up. 

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Other examples of making decisions based on politics that impact sports competition

  1. IOC expelled South Africa from the IOC and South Africa was not allowed to competed in the Olympics from 64-88
  2. During the Asian Cup, which is a FIFA tournament, UAE did not allow the Qatar team to take a direct flight into UAE, and what would have been a 30 minute trip was turned into a 5 hour flight.  The UAE also did not let a Qatari sportscaster into the country, and did not let Qatari fans into the stadium to watch their team play.  This story has a happy ending, the Qatari team kicked the UAE team's ass in the Semi, before they won the tournament.

I just wish sports where the once play where all politics and hatred would be put aside, and athletes would be allowed to compete.

 

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3 hours ago, irani said:

Other examples of making decisions based on politics that impact sports competition

  1. IOC expelled South Africa from the IOC and South Africa was not allowed to competed in the Olympics from 64-88
  2. During the Asian Cup, which is a FIFA tournament, UAE did not allow the Qatar team to take a direct flight into UAE, and what would have been a 30 minute trip was turned into a 5 hour flight.  The UAE also did not let a Qatari sportscaster into the country, and did not let Qatari fans into the stadium to watch their team play.  This story has a happy ending, the Qatari team kicked the UAE team's ass in the Semi, before they won the tournament.

I just wish sports where the once play where all politics and hatred would be put aside, and athletes would be allowed to compete.

 

How did it become 5 hours? Muscat isn't that far.  Maybe 2 hours at most but I can't see it being 5 hours unless they're flying commercial and have a long layover or something.  

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9 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

How did it become 5 hours? Muscat isn't that far.  Maybe 2 hours at most but I can't see it being 5 hours unless they're flying commercial and have a long layover or something.  

A non stop flight is a 50-60 minutes flight

They would not let them fly straight into UAE form Qatar, they had to go to Kuwait, and wait there for some reason, and then fly to UAE.  Very childish behavior

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23 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

Oh yeah if you have to fly to Kuwait. Why don't they just fly through Muscat? It's a lot closer. 

UAE isn't allowing any Qatari planes access to their airspace.  Saudi Arabia joined them in the boycott.  So a plane leaving Qatar would have to fly around the UAE to get to Muscat and then back.  Using a transfer point in Saudi Arabia was not an option either because they are part of the boycott.  Iran and Kuwait would have been the closest options.  Bahrain is on the UAE and Saudi side to this dispute so also not an option. 

Edited by Fishbane

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10 hours ago, Fishbane said:

UAE isn't allowing any Qatari planes access to their airspace.  Saudi Arabia joined them in the boycott.  So a plane leaving Qatar would have to fly around the UAE to get to Muscat and then back.  Using a transfer point in Saudi Arabia was not an option either because they are part of the boycott.  Iran and Kuwait would have been the closest options.  Bahrain is on the UAE and Saudi side to this dispute so also not an option. 

The flight time is about the same I guess.  It's about an hour and 40 minutes to Oman from Qatar.  

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8 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

The flight time is about the same I guess.  It's about an hour and 40 minutes to Oman from Qatar.  

Keep in mind that the plane would have to fly around UAE to get to Oman because of the airspace restriction.   Probably much closer to a wash than it first appears looking at a map.

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