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California's bid to overtake PSU

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It is very unlikely to happen, but if California really cares about this so much, maybe they'll ditch the NCAA and do their own thing.

Kinda like community college wrestling in California does its own thing compared to community college wrestling every where else. 

But the chances of this happening are slim to none. 

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As long as there is Title IX I just don't see HOW paying college athletes can be done.  ONLY Football and MAYBE basketball athletes create enough revenue for most schools( and a ton still lose money) to warrant getting paid.  But, you can't just pay them.  If you even try to do that, are you only going to pay a certain percentage of female athletes to level it out?  Even that can't possibly follow the equality guidelines.  Even if you determine who you can/will pay, can you even pay 1 more than the other?

As soon as California starts paying athletes you will have lawsuits up the ying yang.  Good luck with that!!!

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3 hours ago, WillieBoy said:

NCAA will make rulings that anyone who takes money or remuneration in any form can't participate in Championship competition.

CA will get NO championship events at all.

If California does this you will find that other states do the same thing and the NCAA will have no choice to comply or a new organization will  be formed for college athletics.

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I don't see this as  meaning the schools would pay the kids. The issue is that the NCAA doesn't allow the kids to use their likenesses for profit even on their own.

 

What would happen would be that the bigger schools would be able to indirectly sponsor (for lack of a better word here) the sales of these likenesses and it would create a recruiting inequity.

Edited by gimpeltf

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4 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I don't see this as  meaning the schools would pay the kids. The issue is that the NCAA doesn't allow the kids to use their likenesses for profit even on their own.

This is correct.

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Sublime607 is spot on! They don't care about College Wrestling and they really don't want those Cali kids leaving the state to attend college. I have heard stories of HS Guidance Counselors advising kids that they don't need to take the SAT/ACT tests. With the high number of HS Wrestlers being the first in their family to go to college, this is very disturbing. Are there a bunch of schools out there that will accept a kid without an ACT/SAT score? a JUCO doesn't count either. Will those bigger Cali schools accept a Cali kid without an ACT/SAT score? 

WIN did an article several years ago about all of the discontinued California College mat programs since the 1960's (not sure what the exact title of the article was, but it was mentioned on the front cover). It was a great article and there were a bunch of talented kids & coaches that were willing to stay in Cali or willing to move to Cali for top competition at the college level.  

I don't see the NCAA giving into this but it will be interesting what Cali will do next. 

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4 minutes ago, TexRef said:

Sublime607 is spot on! They don't care about College Wrestling and they really don't want those Cali kids leaving the state to attend college. I have heard stories of HS Guidance Counselors advising kids that they don't need to take the SAT/ACT tests. With the high number of HS Wrestlers being the first in their family to go to college, this is very disturbing. Are there a bunch of schools out there that will accept a kid without an ACT/SAT score? a JUCO doesn't count either. Will those bigger Cali schools accept a Cali kid without an ACT/SAT score? 

WIN did an article several years ago about all of the discontinued California College mat programs since the 1960's (not sure what the exact title of the article was, but it was mentioned on the front cover). It was a great article and there were a bunch of talented kids & coaches that were willing to stay in Cali or willing to move to Cali for top competition at the college level.  

I don't see the NCAA giving into this but it will be interesting what Cali will do next. 

Give into what? You think its great that a bunch of random people made millions off Zion Williamson's likeness, but he couldn't make anything off his own likeness?

Edited by Katie

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Katie-I just don't think the NCAA will be forced to allow the payments. There have been proposals in the past for NCAA Athletes to make some income without putting their eligibility at risk. I think now would be a good time for a good proposal to be put in front of the NCAA. I think that we can all agree that we have seen the NCAA act like they ARE the highest power, and I just don't think they will be able to swallow the pill of California changing the rules. 

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9 minutes ago, TexRef said:

I don't see the NCAA giving into this but it will be interesting what Cali will do next. 

Do they have a choice?  The schools don't have a choice under the law.  They must comply.  Will the NCAA just kick them all out.  It's forcing their hand one way or the other.  Probably a good thing.

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17 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Do they have a choice?  The schools don't have a choice under the law.  They must comply.  Will the NCAA just kick them all out.  It's forcing their hand one way or the other.  Probably a good thing.

Agreed.

Without doing any research, I assume the NCAA will have to do one of three things: (1) comply with CA law; (2) identify a federal law supersedes the CA law (but I doubt such a law exists); or (3) somehow kick CA schools out of the NCAA.

I can only imagine that the NCAA will fight against this hard, because it could mark the end of lots of adults effectively siphoning lots of money from lots of college kids.

Edited by Katie

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Just now, Katie said:

Without doing any research, I assume the NCAA will have to do one of three things: (1) comply with CA law; (2) identify a federal law supersedes the CA law (but I doubt such a law exists); or (3) somehow kick CA schools out of the NCAA.

Well 1 is not happening without a fight.  It will be more drawn out that that with the NCAA trying to prevent this from becoming law and suing to prevent complying with it even if they can't accomplish (2).  If all that plays out and they are forced with having to do (1) then they may do (3).  But kicking out 58 California member schools would be pretty drastic - nearly as drastic as the alternative.

Presumably this also has implications for the NAIA which has several member schools in CA.  Perhaps they take a different path and just comply with the law as soon as the governor signs it and rolls it out to all their member schools in all states and Canada.  The NAIA could then try and recruit the CA NCAA schools and possibly cause a huge shift in the talent level in the NAIA vs NCAA. 

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37 minutes ago, TexRef said:

Katie-I just don't think the NCAA will be forced to allow the payments. There have been proposals in the past for NCAA Athletes to make some income without putting their eligibility at risk. I think now would be a good time for a good proposal to be put in front of the NCAA. I think that we can all agree that we have seen the NCAA act like they ARE the highest power, and I just don't think they will be able to swallow the pill of California changing the rules. 

Gotcha. I misinterpreted your post.

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33 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Well 1 is not happening without a fight.  It will be more drawn out that that with the NCAA trying to prevent this from becoming law and suing to prevent complying with it even if they can't accomplish (2).  If all that plays out and they are forced with having to do (1) then they may do (3).  But kicking out 58 California member schools would be pretty drastic - nearly as drastic as the alternative.

Presumably this also has implications for the NAIA which has several member schools in CA.  Perhaps they take a different path and just comply with the law as soon as the governor signs it and rolls it out to all their member schools in all states and Canada.  The NAIA could then try and recruit the CA NCAA schools and possibly cause a huge shift in the talent level in the NAIA vs NCAA. 

The NAIA doesn’t have the fan support to make the ability to profit off of likeness have any value. 

 

The deal of a free education in exchange for athletic competition is a fair one. Yes, athletes such as Zion or Kyler lose earning potential, but many others who will never go pro gain even more. The problem is not the lack of paying market value to athletes, it’s that most D1 schools don’t actually provide the education that is promised to these athletes. They provide two tracks of education, one for the actual students, and another to ensure that athletes can remain eligible while putting in as little time as possible. 

 

In addition, the greed in terms of coaches/AD salaries is out of control. The NCAA should cap these at a value close to what you’d see for a top faculty member or administrator (around 400K for the coach and a million for the AD) . Instead, all revenue from athletes should be funneled back into services for them (housing, food, tutors, facilities, etc). 

 

California has the best public university system in the country, but this law is just an attempt to score political points rather than an actual solution. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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42 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

The NAIA doesn’t have the fan support to make the ability to profit off of likeness have any value. 

 

The deal of a free education in exchange for athletic competition is a fair one. Yes, athletes such as Zion or Kyler lose earning potential, but many others who will never go pro gain even more. The problem is not the lack of paying market value to athletes, it’s that most D1 schools don’t actually provide the education that is promised to these athletes. They provide two tracks of education, one for the actual students, and another to ensure that athletes can remain eligible while putting in as little time as possible. 

 

In addition, the greed in terms of coaches/AD salaries is out of control. The NCAA should cap these at a value close to what you’d see for a top faculty member or administrator (around 400K for the coach and a million for the AD) . Instead, all revenue from athletes should be funneled back into services for them (housing, food, tutors, facilities, etc). 

 

California has the best public university system in the country, but this law is just an attempt to score political points rather than an actual solution. 

The CA law does not address the alleged systematic problem of athletes receiving sub-par educations. It also does not address the alleged problem of coaches' and ADs' salaries being "out of control." So it's no wonder you think the CA law is a poor fit for those alleged problems.

What the CA law does address is the fact that the NCAA profits from athletes' likenesses, while forbidding them from profiting from their own likenesses.

Whether it's fair for the NCAA to make millions from a star athlete's likeness while forbidding the athlete from doing the same is a political question. CA decided it's not fair.

Edited by Katie

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I hope the NCAA sticks to they policies.  The University system of developmental athletics along with the academics is a great development for our society.  There is a greater reason we have governing bodies like the NCAA and NAIA set those conditions for fair play. 

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This is really the opportunity for the perfect out for the NCAA here. All they have to do is allow all NCAA student athletes to earn income on their likeness. There no title IX conflicts, the rules are the same for everyone, no money will be lost from the revenue streams to the schools or the NCAA. And they have the perfect out because this is becoming legislation, it’s not necessarily the he NCAA saying okay, it would be the NCAA following the guidance of law. 

Now will there be schools that are able rob provide better opportunities in this area, of course. But that’s not different than the facilities arms race and the number of other things involved in recruiting the best athletes. It’s not like there is or ever will be a complete competitive balance across the board. 

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11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

This is really the opportunity for the perfect out for the NCAA here. All they have to do is allow all NCAA student athletes to earn income on their likeness. There no title IX conflicts, the rules are the same for everyone, no money will be lost from the revenue streams to the schools or the NCAA. And they have the perfect out because this is becoming legislation, it’s not necessarily the he NCAA saying okay, it would be the NCAA following the guidance of law. 

Now will there be schools that are able rob provide better opportunities in this area, of course. But that’s not different than the facilities arms race and the number of other things involved in recruiting the best athletes. It’s not like there is or ever will be a complete competitive balance across the board. 

It is very different than the facilities arms race. “Fans” and boosters will buy things like signed pictures from athletes as a means to get around recruiting rules. The result is there will be even less incentive for athletes to be students. Universities exist to educate, not to entertain sports fans. 

18 year old athletes should have the opportunity to go pro, but the NCAA is not the venue to do so. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Let me guess, most of you do not live in CA. Remember - we are a "woke" state. UCLA, USC, Berkeley, etc. will not bring back wrestling. And if they do let me posit it would be the Girls and not the Men wrestling. 

And yes, this is not a "serious" post.

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56 minutes ago, Katie said:

 

Whether it's fair for the NCAA to make millions from a star athlete's likeness while forbidding the athlete from doing the same is a political question. CA decided it's not fair.

Curious, can you name any current CA college wrestler who could currently make millions from their likeness?  $100k, $10k?

Can you name a current specific individual athlete from any US college sport from whom the NCAA is "making millions" and specifically explain how?

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3 minutes ago, dwkeller said:

Let me guess, most of you do not live in CA. Remember - we are a "woke" state. UCLA, USC, Berkeley, etc. will not bring back wrestling. And if they do let me posit it would be the Girls and not the Men wrestling. 

And yes, this is not a "serious" post.

Since you seem to be an expert on California, would you mind letting me know which state Fresno State is in? One of the only D1 programs to actually get restarted was in Cali. Meanwhile the entire SEC has no wrestling. Dropping wrestling programs is apolitical. 

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1 hour ago, ionel said:

Curious, can you name any current CA college wrestler who could currently make millions from their likeness?  $100k, $10k?

Can you name a current specific individual athlete from any US college sport from whom the NCAA is "making millions" and specifically explain how?

Most college wrestlers that receive a full scholarship are getting a tremendous deal.  They will likely not get paid more than the yearly value of the full scholarship for wrestling at any other points in their lives.  That said probably any CA high school state champion wrestler or NCAA All american would be able to make decent side money with private lessons and command more at summer camps. Wrestlers in general are not the ones being exploited by the NCAA.

When UCLA plays a game in the 90,000 seat Rose Bowl people pay to see the game and probably more than $10 on average.  As for an individual off whom an NCAA institution has made millions Zion Williamson is an easy example.

Edited by Fishbane

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