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California's bid to overtake PSU

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4 hours ago, Fishbane said:

  As for an individual off whom an NCAA institution has made millions Zion Williamson is an easy example.

Never heard of him/her but I probably dont follow that sport.

You weren't who I was replying to.  But since you did, you still didnt explain specifically how the NCAA made millions off this Zion's likeness.  Did the NCAA directly sell a couple million t-shirts with his/her picture on them?  

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1 hour ago, ionel said:

Never heard of him/her but I probably dont follow that sport.

You weren't who I was replying to.  But since you did, you still didnt explain specifically how the NCAA made millions off this Zion's likeness.  Did the NCAA directly sell a couple million t-shirts with his/her picture on them?  

No the NCAA did not, but that is irrelevant.  The question I replied to was asking about a player the NCAA was making millions off and didn’t specify anything about likeness.  The NCAA makes billions off the television rights to march madness and use players images in advertising it.  How much do you think a company wanting to use the image of the best player in college basketball in a TV advertisement would have to pay on the open market?

Zion’s popularity translated into millions in free advertising for Duke and the ncaa’s march madness.  Players like him put fans in the arenas, influence shoe buying decisions, and when a team goes on a deep post season run that’s increased revenue and advertising for the school.   With advanced statistics a players contribution to the success of the season can be estimated and a value put on it.  In a sport like basketball a star player can make a big contribution.  Pro athletes use such metrics to negotiate their worth meanwhile a Heisman wining football player or Naismith winning basketball player who ostensibly the most valuable college player in their sport is compensated the same as any other scholarship athlete on the team and forbidden from making the market rate for their image or sports talent.  

The Ed O’Bannon case and others kind of put the kibosh on the NCAA and institutions outright selling a players image on t-shirts, to video game developers, and jerseys bearing their name.  

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16 hours ago, dwkeller said:

Let me guess, most of you do not live in CA. Remember - we are a "woke" state. UCLA, USC, Berkeley, etc. will not bring back wrestling. And if they do let me posit it would be the Girls and not the Men wrestling. 

And yes, this is not a "serious" post.

I agree that they won't either let's face it NCAA Wrestling has not done its self any favors with trying to market the sport and make it more mainstream. This country right is all about trying to put the spotlight on those that have been oppressed in the past. Womens wrestling might be marketed better as a way to fit the current agenda.

I can see rosie the riveter replacing the bandana with headgear.

Edited by Sublime607

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17 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Since you seem to be an expert on California, would you mind letting me know which state Fresno State is in? One of the only D1 programs to actually get restarted was in Cali. Meanwhile the entire SEC has no wrestling. Dropping wrestling programs is apolitical. 

You are right, Fresno State will be a drawing card for ultra talented athletes.

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On 9/15/2019 at 5:10 PM, AZ_wrestling said:

California can kiss the NCAA’s ass. I hope this bill results in every moderately good high school athlete leaving the state to pursue college athletics elsewhere. 

If anything would repel future blue chippers, it would be great weather, great food, the beach, national parks, and the freedom to cash in on their own likenesses.

Edited by Katie

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On 9/12/2019 at 2:53 PM, MSU158 said:

As long as there is Title IX I just don't see HOW paying college athletes can be done.  ONLY Football and MAYBE basketball athletes create enough revenue for most schools( and a ton still lose money) to warrant getting paid.  But, you can't just pay them.  If you even try to do that, are you only going to pay a certain percentage of female athletes to level it out?  Even that can't possibly follow the equality guidelines.  Even if you determine who you can/will pay, can you even pay 1 more than the other?

As soon as California starts paying athletes you will have lawsuits up the ying yang.  Good luck with that!!!

people misunderstand how title ix works all the time. do you think the alabama football team has the same facilities as the alabama women's volleyball team. as for a different comment that i multiquoted incorrectly, there aren't any wrestlers that could make millions but there are definitely some college wrestlers who could make SOMETHING from i don't know - Suples or Asics or Flo if they were allowed to.

On 9/12/2019 at 10:28 PM, ionel said:

Never heard of him/her but I probably dont follow that sport.

You weren't who I was replying to.  But since you did, you still didnt explain specifically how the NCAA made millions off this Zion's likeness.  Did the NCAA directly sell a couple million t-shirts with his/her picture on them?  

The NCAA used his likeness in expensive promotional campaigns, as did their media partners without having to give him anything - and requiring him to let them use his face for free. NCAA member institution Duke filled the racks with jerseys with Zion's number, which sold because they were Zion's number. They also probably sold them with his name too.

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Well, California's Gov. signed the bill into law. Obviously there will be court battles, but I don't see this getting over turned. It may not have as big of an impact on wrestling as football and basketball, but it will definitely change the way the NCAA operates. Other states will undoubtedly soon follow in order to remain competitive (I would expect Alabama, Ohio, Texas, and FL to be among the first). I think this could solve the Title IX issues of paying player directly through a stipend as athletes could seek endorsements that are not directly from the University. But I could see things getting a lot messier, too. I wonder if the Living the Dream fund could be paid out to a college wrestler rather than having to wait like Snyder did?

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20 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Well, California's Gov. signed the bill into law. Obviously there will be court battles, but I don't see this getting over turned. It may not have as big of an impact on wrestling as football and basketball, but it will definitely change the way the NCAA operates. Other states will undoubtedly soon follow in order to remain competitive (I would expect Alabama, Ohio, Texas, and FL to be among the first). I think this could solve the Title IX issues of paying player directly through a stipend as athletes could seek endorsements that are not directly from the University. But I could see things getting a lot messier, too. I wonder if the Living the Dream fund could be paid out to a college wrestler rather than having to wait like Snyder did?

Snyder didn't have to wait he was able to get the money and still wrestle at Ohio St

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22 hours ago, Crotalus said:

Well, California's Gov. signed the bill into law. Obviously there will be court battles, but I don't see this getting over turned. It may not have as big of an impact on wrestling as football and basketball, but it will definitely change the way the NCAA operates. Other states will undoubtedly soon follow in order to remain competitive (I would expect Alabama, Ohio, Texas, and FL to be among the first). I think this could solve the Title IX issues of paying player directly through a stipend as athletes could seek endorsements that are not directly from the University. But I could see things getting a lot messier, too. I wonder if the Living the Dream fund could be paid out to a college wrestler rather than having to wait like Snyder did?

I disagree, I think it would have a larger impact in wrestling than in football/basketball.  Imagine a Penn State that doesn't even have to pretend to be in alignment with 9.9 scholarships, and an Oklahoma State, Iowa, Ohio State, Minnesota, etc trying to keep up. The only thing that would keep any semblance of balance intact is that only one guy per weight per team would be able to compete in the postseason.  This isn't about Rudis being able to cut a check to the Kyle Snyder's of the sport while they're still in school to be part of an ad campaign. This is about boosters being a being able to hand recruits, above board and with no risk or crime involved for anyone, as much as they're willing to pay out to get them on campus and keep them there in exchange for an autograph. I think the end result would be a lot of lower level programs dropped as they're unable to stay competitive since the one thing they can offer, a full ride scholarship vs. walking on or a partial at a bigger school, gets negated. And also anybody they have who does wrestle well as an underclassman would be even easier to pick off by a school with boosters willing to pay. 

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On 9/18/2019 at 4:54 PM, ugarte said:

 

The NCAA used his likeness in expensive promotional campaigns, as did their media partners without having to give him anything - and requiring him to let them use his face for free. NCAA member institution Duke filled the racks with jerseys with Zion's number, which sold because they were Zion's number. They also probably sold them with his name too.

But explain specifically how the NCAA (not Duke etc) made millions off of his likeness.  The NCAA must be sitting on a bank account with billions and billions of dollars (maybe trillions) for all the thousands of millions of dollars they've made over the last decades and centuries from hundreds of thousands of athletes.  ;_;

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55 minutes ago, ionel said:

But explain specifically how the NCAA (not Duke etc) made millions off of his likeness.  The NCAA must be sitting on a bank account with billions and billions of dollars (maybe trillions) for all the thousands of millions of dollars they've made over the last decades and centuries from hundreds of thousands of athletes.  ;_;

Actually yes, the NCAA has officially reported over $1 billion in revenue the past few years, with about $900 million of that estimated to be a result of the basketball tournament.  I think crediting Zion (or whoever a particular year’s top player is) with a few million out of $900 is conservative...

 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/031516/how-much-does-ncaa-make-march-madness.asp

Edited by 1032004

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On 9/18/2019 at 5:54 PM, ugarte said:

The NCAA used his likeness in expensive promotional campaigns, as did their media partners without having to give him anything - and requiring him to let them use his face for free. NCAA member institution Duke filled the racks with jerseys with Zion's number, which sold because they were Zion's number. They also probably sold them with his name too.

I don't think they put names on the jerseys any more.  Many football basketball teams will only sell jerseys with set numbers.  Sometimes these number are common ones that some player will inevitably have.  I think Williamson wore 1 which is a number Duke sells.  

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Will a school now be able to pay an athlete for his likeness rather than counting it as a scholarship? Will the 9.9 matter if an agent can actually broker a deal for likeness that exceeds the amount of the scholarship anyway? Will this rich get richer with this ruling? 

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46 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Actually yes, the NCAA has officially reported over $1 billion in revenue the past few years, with about $900 million of that estimated to be a result of the basketball tournament.  I think crediting Zion (or whoever a particular year’s top player is) with a few million out of $900 is conservative...

 

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/031516/how-much-does-ncaa-make-march-madness.asp

In the NBA players get about half of the league revenue in salary.  That isn't divided evenly.  LeBron James gets a bigger share then Jeremy Lin.  How much of that $900million should the best most marketable player get? 

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9 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Will a school now be able to pay an athlete for his likeness rather than counting it as a scholarship? Will the 9.9 matter if an agent can actually broker a deal for likeness that exceeds the amount of the scholarship anyway? Will this rich get richer with this ruling? 

Schools don't have to pay the athletes under the law but they have to let them earn money off their likeness.  It is against NCAA rules for players to do that.  Clearly the NCAA will either have to exclude these institutions from participating or change their rules.  It is unlikely that the NCAA would change their rules to allow NCAA institutions to pay athletes for their likeness.  Payment for ads or whatever would have to come from a 3rd party

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2 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Schools don't have to pay the athletes under the law but they have to let them earn money off their likeness.  It is against NCAA rules for players to do that.  Clearly the NCAA will either have to exclude these institutions from participating or change their rules.  It is unlikely that the NCAA would change their rules to allow NCAA institutions to pay athletes for their likeness.  Payment for ads or whatever would have to come from a 3rd party

Highlight films, media guides, commercials, jumbo tron images,  posters, banners outside/inside arenas, websites,  etc. could bear the likeness of an athlete and result in payment. whether adding a 3rd party or the school themselves having to pay, the result is that the rich get richer. 

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20 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Highlight films, media guides, commercials, jumbo tron images,  posters, banners outside/inside arenas, websites,  etc. could bear the likeness of an athlete and result in payment. whether adding a 3rd party or the school themselves having to pay, the result is that the rich get richer. 

For Institutions to pay players directly for their likeness would require the NCAA to change their rules by more than the minimum required to comply with the new law.  3rd parties printing media guides, making video games, jerseys, reading cards, ect would need an agreement with the player to feature his/her likeness and the institution to have them in uniform.  

The rich get richer now.  The problem is that the individuals doing a majority of the work don't get their fair share.  This law is a step in the direction of fixing that inequality.  

Edited by Fishbane

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

In the NBA players get about half of the league revenue in salary.  That isn't divided evenly.  LeBron James gets a bigger share then Jeremy Lin.  How much of that $900million should the best most marketable player get? 

As much as their likeness is worth...

I’m not sure if I get your first sentence.   Is that just a comparison between the 2 numbers?  Because last I checked, the league doesn’t pay the players, the owners do.

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18 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

As much as their likeness is worth...

I’m not sure if I get your first sentence.   Is that just a comparison between the 2 numbers?  Because last I checked, the league doesn’t pay the players, the owners do.

The players have unionized and bargain collectively with the leagues owners.  In the most recent collective bargaining agreement the players are guaranteed to receive 50% of the projected league revenue.  Players negotiate individually with teams which determines their individual salary.   

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4 hours ago, Fishbane said:

I don't think they put names on the jerseys any more.  Many football basketball teams will only sell jerseys with set numbers.  Sometimes these number are common ones that some player will inevitably have.  I think Williamson wore 1 which is a number Duke sells.  

what a strange coincidence that the 1's are selling like hotcakes. well, there's no way to tell why. assume it's just random! no profits attributable to players here at all!

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