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I will say I do think the draw was somewhat of a factor this time around.  Not just because JB had a tough draw, but because most of the top guys were concentrated in his quarter of the bracket.  Chamizo and sidakov breezed through.  Fatigue was evident when JB only got 1 point on his first attack with that double.  Normally I think JB finishes that shot.  Age or no age, that many tough matches in a short timeframe fatigues the body.  With that said sidakov wrestled well. The draw is just part of it.  Hats off to him. 

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A) Burroughs was every bit as dirty as Nurykau in that match, and that dude was game. Burroughs struggles a bit when people match the violence of his constant head and eye punching.

B )I think the Sidukov match comes down the the last second scramble every single time no matter how fresh or tired they are, so I don’t really see the draw being an issue here

C) I can’t believe Sidukov takes these crazy shots to give up points when he is winning and consistently makes absolute magic happen to pull these out. I think he beats Chamizo in the finals

D) Burroughs is the smartest and most clutch competitor I have ever seen In my life in any sport. He loses .1% of close matches over a decade. Incredible.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

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1 hour ago, scramble said:

I will say I do think the draw was somewhat of a factor this time around.  Not just because JB had a tough draw, but because most of the top guys were concentrated in his quarter of the bracket.  Chamizo and sidakov breezed through.  Fatigue was evident when JB only got 1 point on his first attack with that double.  Normally I think JB finishes that shot.  Age or no age, that many tough matches in a short timeframe fatigues the body.  With that said sidakov wrestled well. The draw is just part of it.  Hats off to him. 

I agree but I don't think JB would've won anyway, no matter the draw. Sidakov deserves a tremendous amount of credit for doing what is almost impossible: forcing JB to wrestle Sidakov's match. Lock him up, keep it close until the end, and then count on age to win the match late. I thought JB wrestled poorly by his elite standards, and not just this match. He has definitely lost not only a step but also possibly focus and consistency. 

Sidakov vs. Chamizo .... what a tough one to predict. If the best version of Chamizo shows up, I see him winning it on freak factor. But on second thought, if Sidakov can beat JB twice, I can't pick against him. I'm going Sidakov.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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The draw was a significant factor here.  JB looked gassed from almost the beginning of the match with Sidakov -- Manning was screaming for him to move like my high school coach would yell at my sorry axx.  If they wrestled first or second round, advantage JB possibly.  But if they are always meeting in the semis or finals, its tough to see JB reversing the outcome unless he is the beneficiary of an easy draw and Sidakov has to go through the meat grinder first.  In any event, I am happy their match was non-controversial and wrestled at an extremely high level (notwithstanding JB being gassed (for him)).

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3 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Wrong about Franklin, but right about the first match, and Chamizo being favored over Sidakov..... :)

Frank Chamizo World Champ

Why would Chamizo be favored over Sidakov when he has lost two matches the exact same way lol.  Chamizo is very creative; but Sidakov has about every other advantage I can think of:  momentum, athleticism, finding ways to score when he needs to, gas-tank, defense, not giving up points (well, this is a tough category), being younger etc.  His ankle-lace, while not as good as Tsabolov's or Akgul's, is better than any parterre attacks Chamizo has.  

 

Here's hoping Sidakov smashes Chamizo 

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Why would Chamizo be favored over Sidakov when he has lost two matches the exact same way lol.  Chamizo is very creative; but Sidakov has about every other advantage I can think of:  momentum, athleticism, finding ways to score when he needs to, gas-tank, defense, not giving up points (well, this is a tough category), being younger etc.  His ankle-lace, while not as good as Tsabolov's or Akgul's, is better than any parterre attacks Chamizo has.  
 
Here's hoping Sidakov smashes Chamizo 
Lol watch last years match. If Chamizo wouldve just wrestled...its a wrap...
Wont make the same mistake. Congrats Frank on another world Gold.


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1 minute ago, spladle08 said:

Lol watch last years match. If Chamizo wouldve just wrestled...its a wrap...
Wont make the same mistake. Congrats Frank on another world Gold.

 

If he would've just wrestled?  So, Chamizo would have beaten Burroughs if he just wrestled..  more than once.  Really stupid argument.  Sidakov made Chamizo wrestle Sidakov's match (which Chamizo would never win).  He is much better at hand-fighting and in tie-ups than Chamizo has ever been.  

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If he would've just wrestled?  So, Chamizo would have beaten Burroughs if he just wrestled..  more than once.  Really stupid argument.  Sidakov made Chamizo wrestle Sidakov's match (which Chamizo would never win).  He is much better at hand-fighting and in tie-ups than Chamizo has ever been.  
No, as i said earlier if Burroughs made the finals,, its a toss, I give the edge to JB.

Chamizo couldve score in the 1st, then Sidakov kinda fell into a takedown, then ran the rest if the match. When he loses by 2 takedowns tomorrow ill be interested in your take on his awesomeness.

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16 minutes ago, Broomstick said:

The draw was a significant factor here.  JB looked gassed from almost the beginning of the match with Sidakov -- Manning was screaming for him to move like my high school coach would yell at my sorry axx.  If they wrestled first or second round, advantage JB possibly.  But if they are always meeting in the semis or finals, its tough to see JB reversing the outcome unless he is the beneficiary of an easy draw and Sidakov has to go through the meat grinder first.  In any event, I am happy their match was non-controversial and wrestled at an extremely high level (notwithstanding JB being gassed (for him)).

JB often starts tournaments slowly, too. I think age and family life have taken a toll on him.

He's no longer the JB who won worlds on a broken ankle.

At any rate, he'll be treated like a legend for the rest of his life. He'll be fine.

Edited by Katie

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JB often starts tournaments slowly, too. I think age and family life have taken a toll on him.
He's no longer the JB who won worlds on a broken ankle.
At any rate, he'll be treated like a legend for the rest of his life. He'll be fine.
Man i feel like he's still the same. I think we just forget how many matches he pulled a W from an L in the closing seconds from day 1.
He's played with fire for a long time and hes gotta lose sometimes. I mean he lost a criteria decision in the closing seconds to the defending world champ, after a gauntlet...
He's older but hes just as good as he's always been.

Hope he snags that Bronze.

And makes the Olympic team next year

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3 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Man i feel like he's still the same. I think we just forget how many matches he pulled a W from an L in the closing seconds from day 1.
He's played with fire for a long time and hes gotta lose sometimes. I mean he lost a criteria decision in the closing seconds to the defending world champ, after a gauntlet...
He's older but hes just as good as he's always been.

Hope he snags that Bronze.

And makes the Olympic team next year

Technically (as far as the American style goes) and strategically, he's incredibly elite. But physically, I don't see the same quickness and power.

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18 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Man i feel like he's still the same. I think we just forget how many matches he pulled a W from an L in the closing seconds from day 1.
He's played with fire for a long time and hes gotta lose sometimes. I mean he lost a criteria decision in the closing seconds to the defending world champ, after a gauntlet...
He's older but hes just as good as he's always been.

Hope he snags that Bronze.

And makes the Olympic team next year

Who knows what will actually happen, but I don't see this JB beating a healthy Dake next year.

Nor is it really in Team USA's best interest to protect him at Trials. With two guys this good, let them wrestle on equal footing, in the sort of tournament environment they'll see in Tokyo.

If the Trials are a 2-day tournament next year, it shouldn't really matter, but if it's run like the old challenge tournaments, with same day finals, it's too big an advantage.

I'm still hoping JB wins bronze, but not as ardently as I would without the protection policy in place.

At least the weight is qualified.

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18 hours ago, MagnetBack said:

Nor should he be at age 31. Incredible what he has been able to do for so long. 

I know Americans don't generally wrestle into their 30s, but I've always assumed that was due to the limited financial support available.  Even in most "fast twitch" sports, 31 year olds are often still in their athletic prime, and just outside of it at worst.

Perhaps wrestling is an anomaly, but it's closest analog, MMA, features many champions well into their 30s, and even beyond.

With far more money available to those wrestling at the highest level than ever before, I expect we'll see longer careers going forward.

In Jordan's case, I wonder whether family commitments and other obligations aren't just as responsible for his perceived performance decline as any diminished athleticism.

Nor is even wrestling poorly.  Although I agree he doesn't appear as explosive, much of that may be down to strategy.  After years as the top P4P wrestler in the world, he's probably the most studied wrestler in history.  As a result, opponents have learned to better defend his double, forcing him to adapt in response.  I think he's done so pretty effectively.

He lost a razor thin match against the returning world champion, after beating two other top guys, and will likely win a bronze medal at a very competitive Olympic weight.  Almost anyone else would consider the tournament an amazing success, and it's a testament to his greatness that we expected more.

If he beats Dake at next year's Trials, he'll wrestle in Tokyo as one of the favorites for gold, and once again, anything less will disappoint.  He's nearing the end of his career largely by choice, and if he hadn't already hinted next year would be his last, it wouldn't be an issue.

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I agree 31 is not old by most sports’ standards, but a 31 year old wrestling body is the equivalent of a 40 year old “normal” body. Look at 19 or 20 year old Yianni D. How many surgeries has he had already? He may be an extreme example, but you get my point. The wear and tear of a wrestling lifestyle (multi-hour daily grind in a contact sport with long periods of limited nutrition) ... is unique. 

Also, most pro MMA fighters are on PEDs, which can rejuvenate (albeit not fully) an older body. I’m not being cynical, it’s just the reality. Of course, there is PED use in wrestling, but not to the same degree. 

The one age-related fact that is undeniable is age’s effect on cardio. On average, you lose 10 beats per minute off your max heart rate after age 20. A normal 20 year old athlete with 200 bpm max HR will see that decrease to 190 by 30 and 180 by 40. This cannot be “trained up” much, if at all, and is irreversible. Physically, “old JB” is quite literally not the same as the younger version. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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23 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Man i feel like he's still the same. I think we just forget how many matches he pulled a W from an L in the closing seconds from day 1.
He's played with fire for a long time and hes gotta lose sometimes. I mean he lost a criteria decision in the closing seconds to the defending world champ, after a gauntlet...
He's older but hes just as good as he's always been.

Hope he snags that Bronze.

And makes the Olympic team next year

Completely agree

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23 hours ago, MagnetBack said:

Nor should he be at age 31. Incredible what he has been able to do for so long. 

Why is 31 so old. Plenty of NBA All Stars at 31. Same with NFL wide receivers. Are they any less athletic? There are  31 year-olds in their prime in many sports. I was gonna  say that sprinting is an exception, but Justin Gatlin is winning medals in the 100M at age 37.

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

The one age-related fact that is undeniable is age’s effect on cardio. On average, you lose 10 beats per minute off your max heart rate after age 20. A normal 20 year old athlete with 200 bpm max HR will see that decrease to 190 by 30 and 180 by 40. This cannot be “trained up” much, if at all, and is irreversible. Physically, “old JB” is quite literally not the same as the younger version. 

That explains my weight gain.  I. Going to share this with my wife. When she tells me that beer is fattening every time I grab a beer, I am going to tell her "not as fattening as aging" :)

Edited by scramble

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Referring to the age factor in wrestling verse other sports.  I think with wrestling you have many more factors and variables that come into play.  

1) With sprinting 100M there really isn't a major cardio factor.  It is one short burst.  I will take JB in a single wide open 60 second go against anyone in the world. 

2) Football is a fair physical comparison, but I think you have to look more at a running back. A lineman may be a better example even.  No other position really takes the repetitive physical pounding play after play.  D-backs and receivers don't take repetitive poundings. Also in football when running backs for example get older they don't typically have as many carries.  You can can also be more selective where to use them.  Most don't have a 1,000 yards through the course of their career.  

3) Also with cardio, your team sports provide opportunities to catch a breather. Not the case in wrestling. 

4) Wrestling is one of the few sports where you are more likely to get injured and banged up in practice than competition.  Largely because few contact sports have you go 100% regularly in practice while at the same time having no type of body protection except maybe for the ears and mouth. Maybe. 

5) The number of combative competitions. Depending on the age level of competition wrestlers will have 30-50 matches a year.  I know it goes down at the senior level, but prior to that there are years of numerous competitions.  It wears on the body.  Look at what happens to pitchers in the MLB from so many throws. Some of out top wrestlers probably have 1,000 competitions in their lifetime. 

6) wrestling wears on every single part of the body, and requires every part of the body to be healthy. 

7) I think the comparison is comparing 2 different things.  When we talk about JB we are referencing the JB of today with the JB of yesterday.  We are saying Today's JB is clearly one of the top 3 on the world, relatively even with 2 other guys. This makes him an inch behind the JB of yesterday who was the clear favorite for #1.   

However, when comparisons are drawn with other sports, we try to say other athletes In other sports compete at a high level or are still at their "peak" at age 31.  I highly disagree.  How many athletes with comparative physical damnds are putting up the same stats as they were in their 20's when compared to themselves.  Yes they still compete at a high level, but so does Jordan. Despite Tom Brady being the GOAT, he still rarely makes the top 3 on quarter back ratings.  So if the argument is that other sports athletes compete at a high level in their 30's then JB definitely fits that mold.  If the argument is other athletes I'm comparable physicaly demandimg sports still compete in their 30's when compared to their 20 year old selves I would say that is probably debatable. (The Willis sister for example. Even Michael Phelps)

I know most sports have their physical challenges, but I think wrestling has a greater variety of them.  

There are just more variables in wrestling in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, scramble said:

Referring to the age factor in wrestling verse other sports.  I think with wrestling you have many more factors and variables that come into play.  

1) With sprinting 100M there really isn't a major cardio factor.  It is one short burst.  I will take JB in a single wide open 60 second go against anyone in the world. 

2) Football is a fair physical comparison, but I think you have to look more at a running back. A lineman may be a better example even.  No other position really takes the repetitive physical pounding play after play.  D-backs and receivers don't take repetitive poundings. Also in football when running backs for example get older they don't typically have as many carries.  You can can also be more selective where to use them.  Most don't have a 1,000 yards through the course of their career.  

3) Also with cardio, your team sports provide opportunities to catch a breather. Not the case in wrestling. 

4) Wrestling is one of the few sports where you are more likely to get injured and banged up in practice than competition.  Largely because few contact sports have you go 100% regularly in practice while at the same time having no type of body protection except maybe for the ears and mouth. Maybe. 

5) The number of combative competitions. Depending on the age level of competition wrestlers will have 30-50 matches a year.  I know it goes down at the senior level, but prior to that there are years of numerous competitions.  It wears on the body.  Look at what happens to pitchers in the MLB from so many throws. Some of out top wrestlers probably have 1,000 competitions in their lifetime. 

6) wrestling wears on every single part of the body, and requires every part of the body to be healthy. 

7) I think the comparison is comparing 2 different things.  When we talk about JB we are referencing the JB of today with the JB of yesterday.  We are saying Today's JB is clearly one of the top 3 on the world, relatively even with 2 other guys. This makes him an inch behind the JB of yesterday who was the clear favorite for #1.   

However, when comparisons are drawn with other sports, we try to say other athletes In other sports compete at a high level or are still at their "peak" at age 31.  I highly disagree.  How many athletes with comparative physical damnds are putting up the same stats as they were in their 20's when compared to themselves.  Yes they still compete at a high level, but so does Jordan. Despite Tom Brady being the GOAT, he still rarely makes the top 3 on quarter back ratings.  So if the argument is that other sports athletes compete at a high level in their 30's then JB definitely fits that mold.  If the argument is other athletes I'm comparable physicaly demandimg sports still compete in their 30's when compared to their 20 year old selves I would say that is probably debatable. (The Willis sister for example. Even Michael Phelps)

I know most sports have their physical challenges, but I think wrestling has a greater variety of them.  

There are just more variables in wrestling in my opinion.

.....and Bowlers compete well into their 80's

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19 minutes ago, spladle08 said:
20 minutes ago, sidakova4991 said:
Let's go Sidakov!  Top of the world for another year!

Yeah its extremely impressive. I cant deny it. Hes great

Sidakov beat Burroughs and Chamizo, back to back, both last year and this year. I'd say that makes him one of the best wrestlers on the planet.

Plus, he is not a dirty wrestler, and he seems respectful.

Nobody is criticizing him, and I can't imagine that anybody will.

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