Jump to content
Katie

74 kg discussion

Recommended Posts

Sidakov beat Burroughs and Chamizo, back to back, both last year and this year. I'd say that makes him one of the best wrestlers on the planet.
Plus, he is not a dirty wrestler, and he seems respectful.
Nobody is criticizing him, and I can't imagine that anybody will.
I hate his guts, hes soo gritty and beat 2 of the best to do it.... 2x.... overcoming the crazy unique challenges they present... that damn badass bastard... kick rocks :)
#HesGreat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dake vs JB ? I don't know, but JB looked like he had his hands full with IMar at Final X, and had some close ones here at the World's. But JB did what he usually does and finds a way to win. Although, I am typing this before KD's finals bout tomorrow, I really do think KD has improved significantly. So, what does this all mean for the upcoming year? I know JB normally gets the best of KD, but will things continue to stay that way? I don't know, but eventually either Father Time or someone else will get JB. But if KD does get the 74 spot next year for the Olympics, I think he will win it all. If it's JB, I think he medals. I know that's kind of an odd statement, but I am just thinking about how they wrestle the competition and not how they wrestle each other. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two aspects of JB's draws over the years are interesting to me. After nine world/Olympic tournaments,

  1. JB has been the champ or on the same side of the bracket as the champ eight times. The only exception was the 2016 Olympics when he lost to Geduev, who then lost to Yazdani by a score of 6-6.
  2. JB has been on the same side of the bracket as Russia eight times. In 2017, he met the Russian (Tsabolov) in the finals.

(Edited after JH's correction.)

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Burroughs is the GOAT. It’s not that close at this point.  He lost...by a hair this year to the champ. He’s still right there. He had to beat 3 Dagestanis before wrestling the Russian!  With all due respect Smith’s competition in some of his world title years were not nearly as difficult.  Count the number of Russians Burroughs has had to beat during the span of his career.  It’s absurd. 

Dake is unbelievable. I’m a huge fan but the style he’s been using in terms of movement and footwork works well vs flat footed Russians and Dieringer but will play right into Burroughs hands. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

Burroughs is the GOAT. It’s not that close at this point.  He lost...by a hair this year to the champ. He’s still right there. He had to beat 3 Dagestanis before wrestling the Russian!  With all due respect Smith’s competition in some of his world title years were not nearly as difficult.  Count the number of Russians Burroughs has had to beat during the span of his career.  It’s absurd. 

Dake is unbelievable. I’m a huge fan but the style he’s been using in terms of movement and footwork works well vs flat footed Russians and Dieringer but will play right into Burroughs hands. 

Sorry 6 straight world title tops what Burroughs has done.  Who know if Smith would of kept competing if he was getting $250k for each title.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Alwayswrestling said:

Sorry 6 straight world title tops what Burroughs has done.  Who know if Smith would of kept competing if he was getting $250k for each title.

JB is at a weight that’s in the middle of the normal weight distribution.

He competed in an era with fewer weight classes (except 2017 and 2018).

He competed after the Soviet Union disbanded and after Russians started competing for other countries. 

He didn’t compete in 2010 due to injury and he injured his knee during 2014 worlds.

All things considered, he has to be our #2 p4p wrestler ever. Hard to top six straight, but I think it’s fair to be more impressed with JB.

(disclaimer: I’m a huge JB fan.)

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Burroughs is the GOAT. It’s not that close at this point.  He lost...by a hair this year to the champ. He’s still right there. He had to beat 3 Dagestanis before wrestling the Russian!  With all due respect Smith’s competition in some of his world title years were not nearly as difficult.  Count the number of Russians Burroughs has had to beat during the span of his career.  It’s absurd. 

Dake is unbelievable. I’m a huge fan but the style he’s been using in terms of movement and footwork works well vs flat footed Russians and Dieringer but will play right into Burroughs hands. 

I'm glad you mentioned Smith and JB.  I have thought about that quite a bit this past week.  I also thought about Snyder and Cox as it relates to their age and the chances for 6 gold's.  There is no way to diminish the amazing feat of John Smith and winning six gold's, in a row none the less.  

I don't know about the competition level variation, but it does make since when you think about Russia and the former Soviet Union. These days there are so many more representatives in that region of the world where wrestling is one of the primary sports. I think it is much harder to navigate through brackets now.

The thing I have reflected on this past week is how technology has changed things and made it so much more difficult. 20 years ago people had to do live scouting.  You could use a huge VHS recording box to record, but you only got a glimpse of a couple matches.  Now you can watch pretty much every match of opponents wherever they are in the world, and you don't have to be there.  You can break it down frame by frame too.  It makes strategizing and adjusting easier and more accurate.  Snyder's semi is an example.  The commentators talked about the transcript indicating how his opponent knew he (Snyder) would attack and planned on scoring with counter offense. 

Smith was the master of the low single.  There are so many learned defenses for the low single now.  Those were not as prevalant back then.  If video was as available you have to think that by year 3 or 4 someone would have figured out Smith's Low single.  Creating more underhooks, or adjusting to when they stepped forward, etc.  I think over all it is just harder to go on a constant winning run now.  

In general I think it is extremely difficult and subjective when making comparison that span beyond a decade.

The NFL  is an example.  When we look at athletes breaking season records (touchdowns, rushing yards, carries, etc.) Athletes today play more games in a year than athletes 25 years ago. 

Just my random thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tbert said:

Manning should take his share of ownership in the loss.  He told Burroughs to shut it down.

Burroughs is not good at playing the dake passivity game.

Neither is Green..... Hmmmm. I said this after the world team trials when he lost to Deaken. It seems like when Green is winning he shuts down with about 90 seconds.  Inevitably he seems to lose way to much when he does, in the final seconds. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Katie said:

JB is at a weight that’s in the middle of the normal weight distribution.

He competed in an era with fewer weight classes (except 2017 and 2018).

He competed after the Soviet Union disbanded and after Russians started competing for other countries. 

He didn’t compete in 2010 due to injury and he injured his knee during 2014 worlds.

All things considered, he has to be our #2 p4p wrestler ever. Hard to top six straight, but I think it’s fair to be more impressed with JB.

(disclaimer: I’m a huge JB fan.)

Katie, I promise I did not copy your post.  Lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, scramble said:

I'm glad you mentioned Smith and JB.  I have thought about that quite a bit this past week.  I also thought about Snyder and Cox as it relates to their age and the chances for 6 gold's.  There is no way to diminish the amazing feat of John Smith and winning six gold's, in a row none the less.  

I don't know about the competition level variation, but it does make since when you think about Russia and the former Soviet Union. These days there are so many more representatives in that region of the world where wrestling is one of the primary sports. I think it is much harder to navigate through brackets now.

The thing I have reflected on this past week is how technology has changed things and made it so much more difficult. 20 years ago people had to do live scouting.  You could use a huge VHS recording box to record, but you only got a glimpse of a couple matches.  Now you can watch pretty much every match of opponents wherever they are in the world, and you don't have to be there.  You can break it down frame by frame too.  It makes strategizing and adjusting easier and more accurate.  Snyder's semi is an example.  The commentators talked about the transcript indicating how his opponent knew he (Snyder) would attack and planned on scoring with counter offense. 

Smith was the master of the low single.  There are so many learned defenses for the low single now.  Those were not as prevalant back then.  If video was as available you have to think that by year 3 or 4 someone would have figured out Smith's Low single.  Creating more underhooks, or adjusting to when they stepped forward, etc.  I think over all it is just harder to go on a constant winning run now.  

In general I think it is extremely difficult and subjective when making comparison that span beyond a decade.

The NFL  is an example.  When we look at athletes breaking season records (touchdowns, rushing yards, carries, etc.) Athletes today play more games in a year than athletes 25 years ago. 

Just my random thoughts.

 

3 hours ago, Alwayswrestling said:

Sorry 6 straight world title tops what Burroughs has done.  Who know if Smith would of kept competing if he was getting $250k for each title.

So it doesn’t matter who you beat along the way?  I coach a HS team, we could be 20-0 every year with the right schedule.  Smith lost in one of his world tournaments. Had he not won that title would Burroughs be your number 1?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

So it doesn’t matter who you beat along the way?  I coach a HS team, we could be 20-0 every year with the right schedule.  Smith lost in one of his world tournaments. Had he not won that title would Burroughs be your number 1?

It matters, but it's not like Smith waltzed through a bunch of cornballs to six consecutive tittles. He beat some very tough competition too. Smith lost in the 96 Olymipics to Reinoso of Cuba, but even by losses on world championship-level tournaments, JB has four to Smitty's 1. There is just no question who the GOAT is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe that's because JB competed in 9 and Smith only 6.  Who exactly did Smith beat in 1989, Canada's Bohay in the finals who was a 1 time world medalist?  Sounds as tough as 3 Dagestanis, A world champion Russian and a Japanese wrestler.  It's night and day in terms of competition.  You're right there is no question.

Edited by AnklePicker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Burroughs is the GOAT. It’s not that close at this point.  He lost...by a hair this year to the champ. He’s still right there. He had to beat 3 Dagestanis before wrestling the Russian!  With all due respect Smith’s competition in some of his world title years were not nearly as difficult.  Count the number of Russians Burroughs has had to beat during the span of his career.  It’s absurd. 

Dake is unbelievable. I’m a huge fan but the style he’s been using in terms of movement and footwork works well vs flat footed Russians and Dieringer but will play right into Burroughs hands. 

100%

 

This man has been doing it since he left college and has stayed in the top 3 all this time, by 31, many wrestlers have faded, JB has improvised and improved, if not so, people who have scouted him would had run him over by now and he would had been a has been like so many great Russians who go thru the cycle for a few years.  

He is hands down a legend already and still is competing at an elite level.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Katie said:

JB is at a weight that’s in the middle of the normal weight distribution.

He competed in an era with fewer weight classes (except 2017 and 2018).

He competed after the Soviet Union disbanded and after Russians started competing for other countries. 

He didn’t compete in 2010 due to injury and he injured his knee during 2014 worlds.

All things considered, he has to be our #2 p4p wrestler ever. Hard to top six straight, but I think it’s fair to be more impressed with JB.

(disclaimer: I’m a huge JB fan.)

I can't dispute any of these claims here.

Coach Smith is an all time great but he aint no JB.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Maybe that's because JB competed in 9 and Smith only 6.  Who exactly did Smith beat in 1989, Canada's Bohay in the finals who was a 1 time world medalist?  Sounds as tough as 3 Dagestanis, A world champion Russian and a Japanese wrestler.  It's night and day in terms of competition.  You're right there is no question.

You take one of his six years as evidence that his entire run was a cakewalk? JB has so many losses in worlds/Olympics compared to Smith that he would have to wrestle in 24 worlds to have the same stats as Smith, who lost that once, not 9. I get you're proud to be from Jersey, but there is no question. There's a reason why JB himself acknowledges Smith's unique status in American wrestling history and is chasing Smith, something you can only do from behind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Katie said:

JB is at a weight that’s in the middle of the normal weight distribution.

He competed in an era with fewer weight classes (except 2017 and 2018).

He competed after the Soviet Union disbanded and after Russians started competing for other countries. 

He didn’t compete in 2010 due to injury and he injured his knee during 2014 worlds.

All things considered, he has to be our #2 p4p wrestler ever. Hard to top six straight, but I think it’s fair to be more impressed with JB.

(disclaimer: I’m a huge JB fan.)

There's also the eye test, which, of course, can be very deceiving.

Nonetheless, it's hard for me to visualize Smith having anything for similarly sized guys like Rashidov, Otoguro and even Musukaev, but sports also continually evolve, limiting the fairness/reasonableness of such comparisons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ThorsteinV said:

Sidakov is excellent but I just can't envision him beating Dake.  

Although I agree, I'd have said the same about JB and Chamizo.  No way Sidakov beats either, and even after doing it twice, I'm still half convinced next time will be completely different.

Sidakov just doesn't seem as quick, strong, or as generally athletic as other similarly sized elites such as Rashidov or Musukaev, but he's clearly able to limit his opponents' explosiveness in ways I haven't before seen.  His defensive tenacity is also incredible, and although easily forgotten amidst explosive offense, limiting sure takedowns to mere step-outs, or even no points at all, has probably won him each of his victories over JB and Chamizo.

Can he stop Dake?  Even after stopping the two mentioned above, it's hard to imagine him stopping KD, but at this point that's naught but hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...