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hammerlockthree

Does anyone else think the Michigan thing is gross?

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26 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

I said it before worlds and now it just seems obvious.

Beyond the patriotic aspect, I think its that the The University of Michigan is trying to bolster its reputation in respect to other American Universities by ducking competition with them. 

No for me. I think the coaching staff is promoting and advocating for opportunities for their athletes wherever they can. Why does everything have to be some kind of a conflict, even if it’s nothing but good for those we are speaking of, and detrimental to absolutely no one?

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I'm certainly no fan of them, but in the great fraternity of wrestling I have no problem with their tactics.

At least their guys are producing encouraging results.

Congrats to them.

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

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All legit responses. 

Let me spin it a little, for discussion purposes not argumentative purposes. 

If you could enter worlds for a $ amount, and some eccentric billionaire was putting the whole team into worlds, would that be ok? 

Not an apples for apples comparison but i'm not sure where the line is.

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I see your initial point HammerLock, but I think the growth of opportunities outweighs the preconceived boundaries.

I teach at a small, DII, liberal arts university. We attract Olympic hopefuls in Triathlon and Swimming, but they aren't American hopefuls (maybe some Americans in triathlon are because there are so few opportunities). These international kids are a huge asset to our culture and classroom, and obviously they make huge contributions to our athletics programs. This is an apples to oranges comparison, but I think from the perspective of the university, it's a total win! We get more kids whose vision is to be the best in the world, and I certainly embrace that in my classroom. I think it's a more-is-better perspective as institutions of higher learning are concerned. 

As for the follow-up spin: Is that a Foxcatcher reference? I don't see it as a pay to play, or a special team operation. I think Michigan comes with solid international appeal, and it must have a robust staff working on all the complications that come with that. They have high academic standards, and guys like Coon are on the wrestling team. Any way you want to spin it, Michigan is doing a good thing for their student athletes. Whether it's good for USA Wrestling is a different discussion. 

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I don't see a problem at all.  Guys who wrestle for other countries train at Penn State.  Franklin Gomez is a US citizen and he chooses to wrestle for Puerto Rico.  Personally I think if you're at a certain level talent wise you should go for it.  The reason is because our trials process is a grind.  You have focus so much on beating our domestic competition, and let's face it, we wrestle like Americans.  Also our process while extremely fair, doesn't always produce the desired results.  In 2000 we had Stephen Neal, by all accounts one of our best heavyweights we've had, at least top 5.  Neal was a defending world champion and probably would have medaled in Sydney.  Yet he loses fair and square to McCoy who was also a very good wrestler, but didn't do so well at either of the Olympics he participated in. McCoy spent a lot of time training to beat Neal and was arguably his kryptonite.  I don't think Neal ever beat him and if he did it only happened once or twice (I could be wrong).  So we send our guy who finishes 7th at the games ahead of a guy who was a world champion.  Do I think it was fair? Yes, we have our trials system for a reason.  The problem is that guys will sometimes get stuck behind somebody despite outperforming them in other tournaments.  I know not everybody is eager to acquire citizenship in some country that doesn't have very strong wrestling and be a multi time world team member and have a better chance of going to an Olympics because you don't have a grueling trials process to win to make it.  But it would help grow the sport.  I am happy to see countries like San Marino and Switzerland qualify.  

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What's wrong with it?  Support particular athletes and excellence in general rather than a narrow nationalism (or even college team), which is often blind and jingoistic.

The idea of countries is increasingly moot given the fact that (unfortunately) corporations and big money tend to govern the world. 

In the not too distant future, individuals might be competing for Nike, Amazon, GE, FOX and other corporate fictions rather than nation-states..  Yes, it's unnerving, but that is the way things might be moving.

Someone turned on the TV tonight where I was sitting and there was a women's professional basketball game playing.  Across the front of one team's uniform, were big letters that read "AT & T" rather than a team name.

Made me think of that old movie (and the remake) "Rollerball".   

 

I would much prefer guys to wrestle for San Marino or wherever.

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Michigan "thing":

Micic, Abounader, 2 Amines wrestling for nations of their grandparents or parents...Myles Amine and Micic qualified for the Olympics for other nations 

Edited by maligned

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I'm not sure how Cliff Keen Wrestling Club keeps their RTC status.  Maybe it it the ambiguous meaning of the words "limited" and "intermittent."

From USA Wrestling RTC Criteria page:

International athletes/coaches who currently represent a country other than the U.S. may attend on a limited basis based on approval of the NGB and RTC. These individuals must be of similar competitive caliber. These individuals may attend on an intermittent basis in order to enhance national team development.

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17 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I'm not sure how Cliff Keen Wrestling Club keeps their RTC status.  Maybe it it the ambiguous meaning of the words "limited" and "intermittent."

From USA Wrestling RTC Criteria page:

International athletes/coaches who currently represent a country other than the U.S. may attend on a limited basis based on approval of the NGB and RTC. These individuals must be of similar competitive caliber. These individuals may attend on an intermittent basis in order to enhance national team development.

It’s the very first word. The Michigan guys represent other countries but they are American athletes, not international.  I think your point would relate more to NYRTC and Chamizo. 

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30 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

If guys who are a threat to our team train at some of our RTCs (Chamizo, Gomez, et al), I have no issue letting guys who can’t even make our JV team rep their family’s countries. I can’t see how that hurts us. Call me when Cox, Dake, DT, etc. follow suit. 

I don’t have a huge problem with it, but didn’t it hurt us when Micic and Amine qualified their weights but the US didn’t?

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9 hours ago, hammerlockthree said:

All legit responses. 

Let me spin it a little, for discussion purposes not argumentative purposes. 

If you could enter worlds for a $ amount, and some eccentric billionaire was putting the whole team into worlds, would that be ok? 

Not an apples for apples comparison but i'm not sure where the line is.

People would be sufficiently outraged if Burroughs, Taylor, and Snyder went on to wrestle for Saudi Arabia for hot cash. 

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44 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don’t have a huge problem with it, but didn’t it hurt us when Micic and Amine qualified their weights but the US didn’t?

Do you really see us not qualifying those weights because they did? Even if we don’t (can’t imagine that happens, but I suppose anything is possible), we won’t fail because they qualified. The argument that they could’ve repped the US instead and qualified the US is moot since they weren’t making the US team anyway. 

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1 hour ago, jchapman said:

I'm not sure how Cliff Keen Wrestling Club keeps their RTC status.  Maybe it it the ambiguous meaning of the words "limited" and "intermittent."

From USA Wrestling RTC Criteria page:

International athletes/coaches who currently represent a country other than the U.S. may attend on a limited basis based on approval of the NGB and RTC. These individuals must be of similar competitive caliber. These individuals may attend on an intermittent basis in order to enhance national team development.

No more than 5 times a day and change the number up each day! No problem!

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2 hours ago, jeffrideal said:

What about all of the Japanese wrestlers that wrestled for Okie St. in the 60's? 

They were born and raised in Japan, it's a little different. I'm fairly sure the Amines were born in the US (since their father wrestled here). Not sure about Micic but he went to HS here.

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Who cares, we live in a global society. It's never flouted this board regarding Dave Schultz going to Russia, or Hrovat for a year, or Imar going for a month or two recently. Is this really THAT different than those wrestlers training in a country other than the one that they competed for?

A different viewpoint: now that the US is finally turning the corner and ascending in freestyle, it is taking the same route as ex-pat Russian athletes have for years to "level the playing field" so to speak

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2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

They were born and raised in Japan, it's a little different. I'm fairly sure the Amines were born in the US (since their father wrestled here). Not sure about Micic but he went to HS here.

Micic was born in the US 

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The wrestlers are individuals pursuing their dreams in a way that seems good to them.  They have every right to do so as long as they follow established UWW guidelines.  These guys are good enough to have had a shot at making the USA team (although it wouldn't be a given) but chose to what is an obviously easier path to making World and Olympic teams. Wrestling is mainly an individual sport and I for one won't second guess their decisions.

That being said it is odd that so many of the top guys out of U Of Michigan (Micic, Amine, Abounader) seem to have chosen this path - Is Bormet advising his athletes to follow this model rather than to compete for a USA spot?

Edited by lu1979

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A bit off topic but an interesting piece of wrestling trivia concerning the Amine's (Malik at least). On 11-19-17 at Grace Hall Malik Amine- Son of NCAA 2nd Mike Amine (also U Mich) wrestled Cortlandt Schuyler- Son of NCAA 3rd Pete Schuyler (also Lehigh).

I wonder how often something like that has ever happened. A few years back (early 0s) in local HS wrestling one of NCAA 1 at 134 Mike Frick's kids (I think Eric) wrestled NCAA 1st at 134 Don Rohn's son Tommy.

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