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Does anyone else think the Michigan thing is gross?

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Do you really see us not qualifying those weights because they did? Even if we don’t (can’t imagine that happens, but I suppose anything is possible), we won’t fail because they qualified. The argument that they could’ve repped the US instead and qualified the US is moot since they weren’t making the US team anyway. 

Amine sure (with Taylor healthy) but wouldn’t Micic have had a shot?

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10 hours ago, TripNSweep said:

I don't see a problem at all.  Guys who wrestle for other countries train at Penn State.  Franklin Gomez is a US citizen and he chooses to wrestle for Puerto Rico.  Personally I think if you're at a certain level talent wise you should go for it.  The reason is because our trials process is a grind.  You have focus so much on beating our domestic competition, and let's face it, we wrestle like Americans.  Also our process while extremely fair, doesn't always produce the desired results.  In 2000 we had Stephen Neal, by all accounts one of our best heavyweights we've had, at least top 5.  Neal was a defending world champion and probably would have medaled in Sydney.  Yet he loses fair and square to McCoy who was also a very good wrestler, but didn't do so well at either of the Olympics he participated in. McCoy spent a lot of time training to beat Neal and was arguably his kryptonite.  I don't think Neal ever beat him and if he did it only happened once or twice (I could be wrong).  So we send our guy who finishes 7th at the games ahead of a guy who was a world champion.  Do I think it was fair? Yes, we have our trials system for a reason.  The problem is that guys will sometimes get stuck behind somebody despite outperforming them in other tournaments.  I know not everybody is eager to acquire citizenship in some country that doesn't have very strong wrestling and be a multi time world team member and have a better chance of going to an Olympics because you don't have a grueling trials process to win to make it.  But it would help grow the sport.  I am happy to see countries like San Marino and Switzerland qualify.  

Just to clarify, Puerto Ricans are US citizens because Puerto Rico is a US territory. Puerto Rico just happens to have its own “national” Olympic committee.

A handful of other non-sovereign territories also have “national” Olympic committees, including Bermuda and the US Virgin Islands. 

Edited by Katie

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Micic and Amine proved (emphasis on "proved") they are in the top 5 in the world.  Wrestling would be better off if they were kept out of the tournament?  Made to wrestle for only one country when they legally possess dual citizenship because "patriots" don't like it?  Has world wrestling gotten even better, more competitive, and more challenging since the Soviet break-up?  God bless UM and any other place that legally and by the established rules allows a young person to pursue their potential.

Better to have a situation like Miron Kharchiliava's?  Won the Soviet junior national championship but was not allowed by the Soviet sports authorities to compete in the Junior World Championship; they sent the ethnic Russian Miron beat in the finals instead.  He defects to the US, and when the Soviet Union breaks up he is by law supposed to wrestle for the Republic of Georgia.  The problem is that he's Abkhazian, and the Georgians killed his father and cousins in their civil war.  Russia had not yet annexed Abkhazia, so he couldn't wrestle for Russia, Georgia, the US, or Abkhazia in his prime years as a wrestler.  A true man without a country.

Once he finally achieved US citizenship, he was near 40, injured, and well past his prime.  A shame he was never given an opportunity.

Let these young guys wrestle.  If they follow the rules, put in the time and sacrifice, more power to them.  Especially if they are training with a lot of young US kids, showing them what it takes to reach the highest level.

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I think so but he himself voted with his feet so that doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence in his chances.

Maybe so, but Micic is the one that makes the most sense to me in terms of wrestling for another nation. He's the son of Serbian immigrants, so he almost certainly identifies strongly with the culture. I have 2 daughters that have spent all but the infancy of their 8 years in France, but they themselves feel much more American than French still at this age. By high school, it will be a mix, but they would both die to represent U.S. women in gymnastics or soccer even though all they know is France and their French friends and sports clubs. For a guy like Micic that grows up straddling the two cultures, I'm sure it's an easy leap to represent his parents' nation, get to be the automatic rep at all big events, and never have to worry about any qualification process. 

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As a Michigan guy, it's pretty conflicting for me. I'll always root for Amine and Micic at the World/olympic level but I'd prefer them be competing for USA. 

I'm wondering where this all goes from here. Does this continue to be a "thing" Michigan does and other RTC's hop on the train. Or is this unique because of the crop of kids at Michigan during this time period. Interesting note-Cam Amine (cousin of Myles and Malik) might be able to compete for Lebanon - his grandpa was an olympic medalist for Lebanon in 1960. He would not be able to compete for San Marino though-that citizenship is through Myles and Malik's mother.

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32 minutes ago, maligned said:

Maybe so, but Micic is the one that makes the most sense to me in terms of wrestling for another nation. He's the son of Serbian immigrants, so he almost certainly identifies strongly with the culture. I have 2 daughters that have spent all but the infancy of their 8 years in France, but they themselves feel much more American than French still at this age. By high school, it will be a mix, but they would both die to represent U.S. women in gymnastics or soccer even though all they know is France and their French friends and sports clubs. For a guy like Micic that grows up straddling the two cultures, I'm sure it's an easy leap to represent his parents' nation, get to be the automatic rep at all big events, and never have to worry about any qualification process. 

Speaking of soccer, our men's soccer team has a bunch of guys raised in Germany or elsewhere overseas (mostly Army brats, I think).

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5 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Speaking of soccer, our men's soccer team has a bunch of guys raised in Germany or elsewhere overseas (mostly Army brats, I think).

We (USA) currently have three players that have been capped in 2019. Born in France, New Zealand and the Netherlands.

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Zero issue with it personally.  It wouldn't bother me if country of representation became much less of a focus for international amateur athletics - much like it is in professional sports, where is is merely ancillary to the competition.  I'd much rather have the best in the world represented as opposed to the current system of one from each country.

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This has been on my mind for years.

I had a college teammate wrestle in the Olympics for another country and it was cool to watch him.  He actually placed somewhere around 13th, I believe... but we probably had at least 15 guys domestically who were better than him.  He wasn't a huge loss to the USA wrestling team.  

He told me to look into wrestling for Ireland.  I qualify for Irish citizenship.  It wasn't important enough for me to go through the hassles, there was no gofundme yet, and I was too proud of my American citizenship to represent another nation.  My grandfather didn't decide to come to the US for the heck of it.  It was important for him to come here and see his children and grandchildren benefit from the American way of life.  That meant something to me.

So I can understand why these guys do it.  But it would certainly be nice to see Micic compete for the US.

I'm much more upset about guys like Chamizo benefitting from our money and coaching and actually being coached and paid to beat JB.

Edited by AHamilton

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24 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

This has been on my mind for years.

I had a college teammate wrestle in the Olympics for another country and it was cool to watch him.  He actually placed somewhere around 13th, I believe... but we probably had at least 15 guys domestically who were better than him.  He wasn't a huge loss to the USA wrestling team.  

He told me to look into wrestling for Ireland.  I qualify for Irish citizenship.  It wasn't important enough for me to go through the hassles, there was no gofundme yet, and I was too proud of my American citizenship to represent another nation.  My grandfather didn't decide to come to the US for the heck of it.  It was important for him to come here and see his children and grandchildren benefit from the American way of life.  That meant something to me.

So I can understand why these guys do it.  But it would certainly be nice to see Micic compete for the US.

I'm much more upset about guys like Chamizo benefitting from our money and coaching and actually being coached and paid to beat JB.

Dolly was a beast! That front headlock wrecked some good guys.

Edited by maligned

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18 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I didn't go to UNI lol. I was aD2 guy.   My college teammate wrestled for another nation.  

So did Dolly. He wrestled for Ireland. That's why I thought your story was about him. He actually wrestled worlds 3 times, finishing 9th as his highest. He also took 5th at Euros once--all for Ireland.

Edited by maligned

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Would help things if Countries that qualify a weight could put two wrestlers per weight into the tournaments.

As for wrestling for another country - what about "sovereign nations" as we have in the US with Indian Reservations? Who wouldn't want to wrestler for the "sovereign nation" of Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa in the next Olympic Games?

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4 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Do you really see us not qualifying those weights because they did? Even if we don’t (can’t imagine that happens, but I suppose anything is possible), we won’t fail because they qualified. The argument that they could’ve repped the US instead and qualified the US is moot since they weren’t making the US team anyway. 

It shouldn't matter, but It's not that far-fetched, is it?  

It's on the margins, I know, but one spot taken = one more tough opponent that we could see at last chance quals. In the case of 86kg, Amine was the direct reason that Torreblanca didn't qualify (not that he necessarily would have, but still).  

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3 hours ago, maligned said:

Maybe so, but Micic is the one that makes the most sense to me in terms of wrestling for another nation. He's the son of Serbian immigrants, so he almost certainly identifies strongly with the culture. I have 2 daughters that have spent all but the infancy of their 8 years in France, but they themselves feel much more American than French still at this age. By high school, it will be a mix, but they would both die to represent U.S. women in gymnastics or soccer even though all they know is France and their French friends and sports clubs. For a guy like Micic that grows up straddling the two cultures, I'm sure it's an easy leap to represent his parents' nation, get to be the automatic rep at all big events, and never have to worry about any qualification process. 

Micic's dad was born in Serbia, but his mom is American.

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4 hours ago, Katie said:

Just to clarify, Puerto Ricans are US citizens because Puerto Rico is a US territory. Puerto Rico just happens to have its own “national” Olympic committee.

A handful of other non-sovereign territories also have “national” Olympic committees, including Bermuda and the US Virgin Islands. 

I know that, it's interesting because some of the US territories really don't have much in the way of somebody deciding to wrestle for them.  My girlfriend laughs at it sometimes, since she's foreign born.  If we ever had kids who became wrestlers though they would have several options besides the US, since both of us hold dual citizenship.  

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In this same post thread I'm seeing how Amine has made it harder for US athletes, and also someone #16+ on the domestic US ladder snuck into WC for another country and was a cupcake draw for US opponents. Both tie back to the same idiom - beat the person in front of you and it doesn't matter. Or don't bother claiming you want to be the best in the world.

Edited by bnwtwg

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3 hours ago, maligned said:

So did Dolly. He wrestled for Ireland. That's why I thought your story was about him. He actually wrestled worlds 3 times, finishing 9th as his highest. He also took 5th at Euros once--all for Ireland.

Yeah that's what I figured you thought.  I should have expressed myself more clearly.

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8 hours ago, lu1979 said:

The wrestlers are individuals pursuing their dreams in a way that seems good to them.  They have every right to do so as long as they follow established UWW guidelines.  These guys are good enough to have had a shot at making the USA team (although it wouldn't be a given) but chose to what is an obviously easier path to making World and Olympic teams. Wrestling is mainly an individual sport and I for one won't second guess their decisions.

That being said it is odd that so many of the top guys out of U Of Michigan (Micic, Amine, Abounader) seem to have chosen this path - Is Bormet advising his athletes to follow this model rather than to compete for a USA spot?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the trend started when David Habat began wrestling at CKWC after graduating from Edinboro.  Whether he thought of wrestling for Slovenia on his own, or was steered in that direction by someone (maybe Bormet?), I don't know, but I too am curious how it became the way it is.

Regardless, CKWC can probably squeeze a lot of promotion out of the fact that they qualified twice as many weights as USA Wrestling.

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7 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I think so but he himself voted with his feet so that doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence in his chances.

Considering Micic beat Fix in two straight to make either the 2015 or 2016 Junior World team, and went on to medal, I'd say he'd have as good a shot as anyone to make the team.

Interestingly, Ravi Kumar, the Indian who came from behind to beat him 12-8 at that Junior Worlds knocked Fix out of this year's Senior Worlds, when he beat Takahashi 6-2.  He also won the bottom half of the bracket bronze at 57.

It's also noteworthy that India qualified three weights for next year (57, 65 & 86 kg).

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Virginia Tech T&F started their trend back when I was an undergrad where they would recruit the best throwers, both male and female, from around the world. Virginia Techs first National Champion, in anything, was a hammer thrower from Greece. Lots of AAs came from other countries in the field events, other events, not so much. I know it’s different but they are on scholarship in the US, competing for their home countries in the World Championships and Olympics.

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