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Does anyone else think the Michigan thing is gross?

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Eh, that IS different.  They're representing a team, not a country.   No one really has negative opinions about international wrestlers in the NCAA, because anyone can be a student.   

For the record again, I don't really mind it and would absolutely do the same thing, but they should probably adjust the RTC rules.
What Americans does PSU have representing other countries?   Gomez grew up in PR so his situation is different.  Or are you just referring to international guys training there?
I believe Gomez, Espinal, and Abdurakmanov are wrestle for the NLWC while representing other countries.



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18 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

I believe Gomez, Espinal, and Abdurakmanov are wrestle for the NLWC while representing other countries.



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Yes, representing countries they are actually from which is different than the Michigan thing.

Although of course we did also discuss earlier that the NLWC may be in violation of RTC rules if any of them are there on more than an "intermittent basis"

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On 10/3/2019 at 10:02 PM, wrestlingnerd said:

No offense, but this is the type of ignorant comment that makes me cringe about even replying to what I thought was an off topic but nevertheless interesting post by Plasmodium on a topic I devoted a decade of my life to. You clearly have zero clue what is being discussed.

Exactly,  you believe that?  Lemme guess, he's(O'Steen) non-profit, too.  hah  Any strong accountant can make you look as if you are operating in the red, just ask the occupant of the White House.

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Yes, representing countries they are actually from which is different than the Michigan thing.

Although of course we did also discuss earlier that the NLWC may be in violation of RTC rules if any of them are there on more than an "intermittent basis"

How is it different?

 

They're both training wrestlers who represent other countries at their RTC's.

 

They could use their resources to train US wrestlers only.

 

Should American coaches like Cael Sanderson train wrestlers from foreign countries at his RTC?

 

Foreiners like Gomez or Abdurakmanov could potentially knock our guys out of the Olympics. Thus affecting the coveted (non official) team race.

 

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5 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

How is it different?

They're both training wrestlers who represent other countries at their RTC's.

They could use the resources to train us wrestlers only, which is a bigger issue

Should American coaches like Cael Sanderson train wrestlers from foreign countries at his RTC?

Foreiners like Gomez or Abdurakmanov could potentially knock our guys out of the Olympics. Thus affecting the coveted (non official) team race.

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Yes, some may consider that to be a problem, but it’s a different problem than at Michigan, where in theory those guys “should” actually be representing the US.  For example, did any of them start training at CKWC before announcing that they would be representing other countries?

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4 hours ago, cjc007 said:

How is it different?

 

They're both training wrestlers who represent other countries at their RTC's.

 

They could use their resources to train US wrestlers only.

 

Should American coaches like Cael Sanderson train wrestlers from foreign countries at his RTC?

 

Foreiners like Gomez or Abdurakmanov could potentially knock our guys out of the Olympics. Thus affecting the coveted (non official) team race.

 

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The difference is that Michigan RTC seems to be encouraging their athletes to defect if they have any ancestry from another country in the past 100 years. Penn State RTC brings in foreign athletes to make their American athletes better. One is in the best interest of USAW and the other directly goes against it. 

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

The difference is that Michigan RTC seems to be encouraging their athletes to defect if they have any ancestry from another country in the past 100 years. Penn State RTC brings in foreign athletes to make their American athletes better. One is in the best interest of USAW and the other directly goes against it. 

May I ask where you get that it seems they are encouraging their athletes to defect?  Did you see the interview with Bormet at Worlds?  If you haven’t you should check it out, it will probably change your opinion. 

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21 minutes ago, Lurker said:

May I ask where you get that it seems they are encouraging their athletes to defect?  Did you see the interview with Bormet at Worlds?  If you haven’t you should check it out, it will probably change your opinion. 

The fact that they have people wrestling for countries despite very minimal connections. That’s how the Abounader situation happened, which was an embarrassment. A representative from the university of Michigan boycotted a match against Israel. That is a stain on the program and USAW. Yes, Abounader handled the situation as best as he could, but the Michigan coaches should not have put him in that situation and USAW should not enable this. 

Bormet called this a “unique situation,” which I don’t buy. Unique situations are guys like Franklin Gomes or Triggas who actually have dual nationality. Not when your entire RTC starts shopping for eligibility based on a grandparent or distant heritage. 

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First thing I’ll get to is if you watch the video it is obvious his preference is for these guys to wrestle for USA. His kids had opportunities to compete at the world championships, they wanted to do so, and he, as a good coach and what any coach should do, supported those desires. Now two of them are Olympians, something they probably never would have been otherwise. Additionally you stated with minimal connections. The connections are with the athletes and their families, in some cases very strong connections. Not through the U of M.  

Secondly, a representative of Michigan did not forfeit. He was not representing Michigan. I understand what you’re getting at, but he was not there competing as a representative of Michigan. And...what the heck was he supposed to do at that point? 

You make statements like “an entire RTC starts shopping four”....please show me the information you have that shows the entire RTC shopping for eligibility, and where these four students make up their entire RTC. The only thing we know is that these individuals wanted to pursue this opportunity, and against his own preference, fully supported their pursuit. I say kudos to him because he was obviously conflicted about it.  

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The difference is that Michigan RTC seems to be encouraging their athletes to defect if they have any ancestry from another country in the past 100 years. Penn State RTC brings in foreign athletes to make their American athletes better. One is in the best interest of USAW and the other directly goes against it. 
They willing to train foreigners to improve their RTC, not to make their American wrestlers better imo. How does an American Olympian train Abdurakmanov who competes at 74 kg? Does that make Burroughs better? I doubt it. But it does help Carl's ego.

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23 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

They willing to train foreigners to improve their RTC, not to make their American wrestlers better imo. How does an American Olympian train Abdurakmanov who competes at 74 kg? Does that make Burroughs better? I doubt it. But it does help Carl's ego.

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Burroughs isn’t a NLWC athlete...

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The fact that they have people wrestling for countries despite very minimal connections. That’s how the Abounader situation happened, which was an embarrassment. A representative from the university of Michigan boycotted a match against Israel. That is a stain on the program and USAW. Yes, Abounader handled the situation as best as he could, but the Michigan coaches should not have put him in that situation and USAW should not enable this. 

Bormet called this a “unique situation,” which I don’t buy. Unique situations are guys like Franklin Gomes or Triggas who actually have dual nationality. Not when your entire RTC starts shopping for eligibility based on a grandparent or distant heritage. 

All of those guys have dual nationality.  You can't just wake up and decide to compete for another country one day.  You have to fill out paperwork and prove that you have an actual legitimate connection that allows you to have dual citizenship.  I get that sometimes that's a vague thing, look no further than most of the Greek baseball and softball players in 2004, I think 90% of them were American.  A lot of them were given citizenship due to some really far reaching ties.  Amine for example, his mother was upon birth a citizen of San Marino.  That's pretty direct and not that far reaching.  A friend of mine who is going to take a run at the next cycle, his mother was born in the country he's choosing to wrestle for.  This isn't some "my great-grandmother was born there but left when she was a kid so now I'm using that to get citizenship."    

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42 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

All of those guys have dual nationality.  You can't just wake up and decide to compete for another country one day.  You have to fill out paperwork and prove that you have an actual legitimate connection that allows you to have dual citizenship.  I get that sometimes that's a vague thing, look no further than most of the Greek baseball and softball players in 2004, I think 90% of them were American.  A lot of them were given citizenship due to some really far reaching ties.  Amine for example, his mother was upon birth a citizen of San Marino.  That's pretty direct and not that far reaching.  A friend of mine who is going to take a run at the next cycle, his mother was born in the country he's choosing to wrestle for.  This isn't some "my great-grandmother was born there but left when she was a kid so now I'm using that to get citizenship."    

If your only tie to the country is that your mother was born there, you should not be eligible to compete for the country. If he were to move/live there, then that would be another story and perfectly reasonable. If he himself were born there, that would also be fine. I’m also opposed to the way the Russian wrestlers also do this.  

 

All this is just my opinion though-I get that some would prefer if an athlete can compete for whomever since it is best for the athletes to be able to compete. Not me though, since I think that goes against the entire purpose of international competition and the Olympics. 

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

If your only tie to the country is that your mother was born there, you should not be eligible to compete for the country. If he were to move/live there, then that would be another story and perfectly reasonable. If he himself were born there, that would also be fine. I’m also opposed to the way the Russian wrestlers also do this.  

 

All this is just my opinion though-I get that some would prefer if an athlete can compete for whomever since it is best for the athletes to be able to compete. Not me though, since I think that goes against the entire purpose of international competition and the Olympics. 

That's a pretty good claim honestly.  If you are eligible for citizenship elsewhere and exercise your right to do so, why not?  I wish we had more of it.  I can think of some wrestlers who have that choice but haven't yet.  Pico could choose to wrestle for Mexico and I think that's great.  Obe Blanc could choose to wrestle for Haiti and that would be awesome.  I know there have been some guys who could have done that and didn't, preferring to try to make the US team.  Commendable, but that is their choice.  If I wanted to I could do the same thing.  

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My mom was born in Germany. Due to the travel issues some Americans experience when traveling abroad, I researched the viability of seeing if I could get a German passport. It would save me hundreds of dollars in visa fees the past few years alone.

 

Well, based on when my mom was born (post-WWII), I wasn’t eligible. Had she been born after 1954, I could have been carrying a German passport. Point is, if the country allows it, they’re well within their rights. I’m not trying to compete, but I’m trying to make my travel experiences easier and save money based on a potential heritage benefit.

 

International policy isn’t my strong suit, but if they have the opportunity, who are we to say “how it should be?”

 

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5 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

My mom was born in Germany. Due to the travel issues some Americans experience when traveling abroad, I researched the viability of seeing if I could get a German passport. It would save me hundreds of dollars in visa fees the past few years alone.

 

Well, based on when my mom was born (post-WWII), I wasn’t eligible. Had she been born after 1954, I could have been carrying a German passport. Point is, if the country allows it, they’re well within their rights. I’m not trying to compete, but I’m trying to make my travel experiences easier and save money based on a potential heritage benefit.

 

International policy isn’t my strong suit, but if they have the opportunity, who are we to say “how it should be?”

 

I agree with you here JB, with the caveat that that the RTCs are a function of USA Wrestling and their Olympic development initiative. If USA wrestling is fine with spending their resources on wrestlers representing other nations, I think it might be time to re-think USA Wrestling.

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6 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

My mom was born in Germany. Due to the travel issues some Americans experience when traveling abroad, I researched the viability of seeing if I could get a German passport. It would save me hundreds of dollars in visa fees the past few years alone.

 

Well, based on when my mom was born (post-WWII), I wasn’t eligible. Had she been born after 1954, I could have been carrying a German passport. Point is, if the country allows it, they’re well within their rights. I’m not trying to compete, but I’m trying to make my travel experiences easier and save money based on a potential heritage benefit.

 

International policy isn’t my strong suit, but if they have the opportunity, who are we to say “how it should be?”

 

Not trying to bust chops (although I'd understand if you thought so) but isn't 1954 Post WWII? I assume you mean immediately Post WWII. As in they didn't allow it for nearly 10 years.

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Burroughs isn’t a NLWC athlete...

Yes, but he is an American. Why would Sanderson train an athlete to compete against our guys?

 

That's the point.

 

Carl is for Carl.

 

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27 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I agree with you here JB, with the caveat that that the RTCs are a function of USA Wrestling and their Olympic development initiative. If USA wrestling is fine with spending their resources on wrestlers representing other nations, I think it might be time to re-think USA Wrestling.

How are they spending resources by letting a foreign wrestler in the room to train with them?  It isn't like the RTC pays everybody or even most people to be there.  Maybe some do, but the majority don't unless it's somebody on the US ladder.  Back in Europe a lot of people think Americans get paid so well to wrestle and that's why.  They're usually pretty surprised to learn a lot of wrestlers at least need to work part time or find sponsors or have amazing family support in order to do this.  RTCs don't spend a lot of recources on foreign athletes, and even if they do, it's not money they get from USAW.  

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6 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

My mom was born in Germany. Due to the travel issues some Americans experience when traveling abroad, I researched the viability of seeing if I could get a German passport. It would save me hundreds of dollars in visa fees the past few years alone.

 

Well, based on when my mom was born (post-WWII), I wasn’t eligible. Had she been born after 1954, I could have been carrying a German passport. Point is, if the country allows it, they’re well within their rights. I’m not trying to compete, but I’m trying to make my travel experiences easier and save money based on a potential heritage benefit.

 

International policy isn’t my strong suit, but if they have the opportunity, who are we to say “how it should be?”

 

That's exactly why I picked up a 2nd passport.  Also fortunately (maybe unfortunately?) I've only been asked if I was American a few times when abroad. Mostly I get mistaken as being Australian, German or once even Turkish.  

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8 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

Yes, but he is an American. Why would Sanderson train an athlete to compete against our guys?

 

That's the point.

 

Carl is for Carl.

 

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Okay, being that you said “to improve wrestlers in THEIR rtc”, I’m not sure where Burroughs came in. So to your point, you don’t think having world medalists and contenders training with our guys helps improve our guys, in this case the likes of Nolf and Molinaro, etc?   Does the whole iron sharpens iron thing only apply if the athletes are from another country? 

Another question. Do you have a problem with Gilman for his training in Dagestan?

Edited by Lurker

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14 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

How are they spending resources by letting a foreign wrestler in the room to train with them?  It isn't like the RTC pays everybody or even most people to be there.  Maybe some do, but the majority don't unless it's somebody on the US ladder.  Back in Europe a lot of people think Americans get paid so well to wrestle and that's why.  They're usually pretty surprised to learn a lot of wrestlers at least need to work part time or find sponsors or have amazing family support in order to do this.  RTCs don't spend a lot of recources on foreign athletes, and even if they do, it's not money they get from USAW.  

The RTC is a resource.  Do you think Amine would have a similar training environment in San Marino?

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5 minutes ago, jchapman said:

The RTC is a resource.  Do you think Amine would have a similar training environment in San Marino?

He could go anywhere and train honestly.  Any club would be happy to have him there.  What about Hrovat spending a year in Russia?  They didn't care.  What about Bracken going to Cuba for several months to prep for the Olympics?  Nobody cared.  It isn't like this is some new thing.  Novachkov wrestled for Bulgaria and was part of the Illinois RTC.  Ivanov wrestled for Bulgaria too and was US based.  USAW even pays for foreign national teams to come and train at the OTC or at least invites them to come and train there.  You act as if guys like Amine, Abounader, and Micic are taking up resources that would otherwise go to wrestlers trying to compete for the US.  They're not.  All the RTC does, unless they have a different arrangment and they could for all I know, is lets them practice there and be coached by Bormet and Beleglazov.  If somebody meets the requirements to be allowed to practice at the RTC then they let them in.  My friend who is wanting to wrestle for the country his mother was born in was a high school state champion.  He never wrestled in college before but wants to keep training since he doesn't like MMA all that much.  I doubt ASU/Sunkist/Zeke Jones are going to care about whether he comes to practice or not.  They just put him through the same motions and drills as everybody else and that's it.  Maybe if he asked them somebody from Sunkist would coach him at a major tournament if he went and they happened to be there.  It's a little different because Amine and Abounader have a long standing relationship because they wrestled at Michigan.  But most foreign athetes who are at RTCs just come to raise their game for a couple of months and then go wrestle back in their country until it's time to come back to the US and train.  Maybe they have family or friends here or something who helps them out, but the RTCs aren't supporting a lot of guys or girls full time.  

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Gimp, yes, immediately post-WWII since my grandfather was an American GI.

To me, this is about how private companies opt to run their clubs. They happen to be in the U.S. I’m not sure what level of funding USAW provides to clubs and RTCs (if any), so this USAW “funding” of foreign athletes seems to me to be more just talk than it is actual dollars.

Resources are in the eye of the beholder. Our entire country is founded by immigrants. Every week there’s some parade in some city about their home culture.

None of our transfers are national team guys, so save a Junior (Micic) or Cadet (Amine) trip, how much has USAW actually put into these guys for there to be this much pushback?

I want the US to win medals. I also have zero issues with athletes wanting to win medals for other countries. We don’t live their lives. We only know their motivations if we hear them talk on it at length (Amine is a guest On The Mat this week, for example: http://mattalkonline.com/otm585)

These are private clubs providing the resources, not the NGB.

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29 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

Gimp, yes, immediately post-WWII since my grandfather was an American GI.

To me, this is about how private companies opt to run their clubs. They happen to be in the U.S. I’m not sure what level of funding USAW provides to clubs and RTCs (if any), so this USAW “funding” of foreign athletes seems to me to be more just talk than it is actual dollars.

Resources are in the eye of the beholder. Our entire country is founded by immigrants. Every week there’s some parade in some city about their home culture.

None of our transfers are national team guys, so save a Junior (Micic) or Cadet (Amine) trip, how much has USAW actually put into these guys for there to be this much pushback?

I want the US to win medals. I also have zero issues with athletes wanting to win medals for other countries. We don’t live their lives. We only know their motivations if we hear them talk on it at length (Amine is a guest On The Mat this week, for example: http://mattalkonline.com/otm585)

These are private clubs providing the resources, not the NGB.

Honest question:  What is the point of having a club be recognized as an official RTC?

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