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Does anyone else think the Michigan thing is gross?

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10 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Honest question:  What is the point of having a club be recognized as an official RTC?

I have this same question. What does the recognition get the club? Is there an agreement with the university to allow the training to be on campus if they are recognized by USAW?

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there's some weird mercenary behavior is sports - small gulf states buying new citizens to create national teams out of whole cloth, for example (and even that makes me laugh rather than gets me upset) - but objecting to someone playing for their grandpa's country is just weird. half of the tournaments are dagestanis now because the bench is so deep and there's only one spot for Russia per weight. 

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43 minutes ago, Ching said:

I have this same question. What does the recognition get the club? Is there an agreement with the university to allow the training to be on campus if they are recognized by USAW?

I have absolutely no idea. Haven't spent much time digging on it to begin with. My comments are just my perspective without any extra knowledge of how things work with RTCs.

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2 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Gimp, yes, immediately post-WWII since my grandfather was an American GI.

To me, this is about how private companies opt to run their clubs. They happen to be in the U.S. I’m not sure what level of funding USAW provides to clubs and RTCs (if any), so this USAW “funding” of foreign athletes seems to me to be more just talk than it is actual dollars.

Resources are in the eye of the beholder. Our entire country is founded by immigrants. Every week there’s some parade in some city about their home culture.

None of our transfers are national team guys, so save a Junior (Micic) or Cadet (Amine) trip, how much has USAW actually put into these guys for there to be this much pushback?

I want the US to win medals. I also have zero issues with athletes wanting to win medals for other countries. We don’t live their lives. We only know their motivations if we hear them talk on it at length (Amine is a guest On The Mat this week, for example: http://mattalkonline.com/otm585)

These are private clubs providing the resources, not the NGB.

I don't think people actually expect some sort of rules change that blocks stuff like this from happening, just more of a debate about what people think "should" be the case.

It goes both ways too.   Didn't US Soccer teams in the past have a bunch of players that were born and raised in Germany but had American parents or something?

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On 9/27/2019 at 9:40 AM, wrestlingnerd said:

It's so. And it is a joke. I say this as someone who used to work at one of these "hedge funds with classes" in the "hedge fund" (quote lifted from article below).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2017/11/27/ten-reasons-why-congress-is-right-to-tax-the-ivy-league/#4b92196f696d

 

You're getting at a much more fundamental question as to whether we ought to be taxing non-governmental 501c3's that are providing a service most would agree is for the common good, in place of something that would otherwise be provided by the state.  

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34 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I don't think people actually expect some sort of rules change that blocks stuff like this from happening, just more of a debate about what people think "should" be the case.

It goes both ways too.   Didn't US Soccer teams in the past have a bunch of players that were born and raised in Germany but had American parents or something?

Yes.  It's highly common in international soccer.  We've had that work in our favor as well as against us (more often in our favor).

It can be a bit of a free for all in Europe especially.  I can think of multiple examples of sets of brothers that play for different countries.  

 

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If you think universities with endowments the size of some countries’ GDP (only half tongue in cheek) are the same as their peer group as you define above, why even have a conversation at all ...  anyway, I regret taking the bait on this tangent. This is a wrestling forum, I’ll stick to wrestling. 

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2 hours ago, Ching said:

I have this same question. What does the recognition get the club? Is there an agreement with the university to allow the training to be on campus if they are recognized by USAW?

I'm not sure what it does for the Olympic level guys but it allows more high caliber HS kids  entry. Regular clubs would allow more kids as they have a fifty mile limit but no qualification requirements. RTCs can only allow kids with various credentials but with a 250 mile limit or if state is bigger the whole state.

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3 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

I'm not sure what it does for the Olympic level guys but it allows more high caliber HS kids  entry. Regular clubs would allow more kids as they have a fifty mile limit but no qualification requirements. RTCs can only allow kids with various credentials but with a 250 mile limit or if state is bigger the whole state.

What's to stop Terry Brands from starting a club called the "Black and Gold Club" and inviting whoever the hell he wants from 1,000 miles away? It seems like the RTC is just to add level playing fields to something that had none in the past, but who forces the affiliation?

In MN, there are wrestling clubs that pay coaches from the U of M to coach their club practices, why couldn't they start their own club?

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8 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Gimp, yes, immediately post-WWII since my grandfather was an American GI.

To me, this is about how private companies opt to run their clubs. They happen to be in the U.S. I’m not sure what level of funding USAW provides to clubs and RTCs (if any), so this USAW “funding” of foreign athletes seems to me to be more just talk than it is actual dollars.

Resources are in the eye of the beholder. Our entire country is founded by immigrants. Every week there’s some parade in some city about their home culture.

None of our transfers are national team guys, so save a Junior (Micic) or Cadet (Amine) trip, how much has USAW actually put into these guys for there to be this much pushback?

I want the US to win medals. I also have zero issues with athletes wanting to win medals for other countries. We don’t live their lives. We only know their motivations if we hear them talk on it at length (Amine is a guest On The Mat this week, for example: http://mattalkonline.com/otm585)

These are private clubs providing the resources, not the NGB.

It is good for the athletes, but bad for the entire purpose of international competition.  It gets around the rule that one country gets one wrestler and turns worlds into a dual between Russia and USA. 

 

In terms of immigration:  if an athlete immigrates and switches countries that’s great and I have no problem with that. If your mother or father or grandparent immigrated to the US and you want to represent the former country despite having no other ties, you’re gaming the system (in my opinion). It’s one thing to be proud of your heritage, but it’s another to think you should represent that country in international competition. 

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

It is good for the athletes, but bad for the entire purpose of international competition.  It gets around the rule that one country gets one wrestler and turns worlds into a dual between Russia and USA. 

 

In terms of immigration:  if an athlete immigrates and switches countries that’s great and I have no problem with that. If your mother or father or grandparent immigrated to the US and you want to represent the former country despite having no other ties, you’re gaming the system (in my opinion). It’s one thing to be proud of your heritage, but it’s another to think you should represent that country in international competition. 

Every country has their criteria to decide who gets to be a citizen and what they need to fulfill as far as being eligible to compete for them.  Some places have less stringent requirements, and others it's nigh impossible to do.  Like if you had a bunch of money burning a hole in your pocket, you could get citizenship by investment in a lot of countries. You could go wrestle for Dominica or St. Kitts and Nevis for about $150k.  Processing takes about a week or two until you're a full fledged citizen.  

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1 hour ago, Ching said:

What's to stop Terry Brands from starting a club called the "Black and Gold Club" and inviting whoever the hell he wants from 1,000 miles away? It seems like the RTC is just to add level playing fields to something that had none in the past, but who forces the affiliation?

In MN, there are wrestling clubs that pay coaches from the U of M to coach their club practices, why couldn't they start their own club?

The NCAA rules that prevent exactly that! It's a compliance thing. It might depend on what you mean by prevent, laws don't prevent things from happening they just make them illegal.

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5 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

It is good for the athletes, but bad for the entire purpose of international competition.  It gets around the rule that one country gets one wrestler and turns worlds into a dual between Russia and USA. 

 

In terms of immigration:  if an athlete immigrates and switches countries that’s great and I have no problem with that. If your mother or father or grandparent immigrated to the US and you want to represent the former country despite having no other ties, you’re gaming the system (in my opinion). It’s one thing to be proud of your heritage, but it’s another to think you should represent that country in international competition. 

Personally I wish the best wrestlers could compete for gold regardless of their nation.  We get more than one rep in track and field and swimming and various other sports.  If they’re good enough to qualify they should be able to compete.

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12 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

The NCAA rules that prevent exactly that! It's a compliance thing. It might depend on what you mean by prevent, laws don't prevent things from happening they just make them illegal.

So that pretty much answers the question of what’s the point of being an official RTC right?  It allows the college coaches to legally be present?

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

So that pretty much answers the question of what’s the point of being an official RTC right?  It allows the college coaches to legally be present?

NCAA has rules and compliance setup for clubs.RTC isn't tied to NCAA at all it's policed by USAW.RTC are actually hurting us more then helping us internationally.RTC are helping colleges recruit and get better.RTC athletes are used as a recruiting tool.The reason RTC need to be tied to a university is that's the way to get the funding college fans donate money to there team which funds the RTC and helps them recruit college athletes.Wrestling fans care about college wrestling not international wrestling if all athletes went to train under 1 roof at OTC nobody would donate $ why because it doesn't benefit there team.Everybody thinks RTC have made us better just think if all our athletes trained under 1 roof instead of training with college guys all the time.And the coaches are worried about the season and training there guys then at night or at a different time RTC has practice they're not the main focus and are being used to build a brand. 

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53 minutes ago, calot said:

NCAA has rules and compliance setup for clubs.RTC isn't tied to NCAA at all it's policed by USAW.RTC are actually hurting us more then helping us internationally.RTC are helping colleges recruit and get better.RTC athletes are used as a recruiting tool.The reason RTC need to be tied to a university is that's the way to get the funding college fans donate money to there team which funds the RTC and helps them recruit college athletes.Wrestling fans care about college wrestling not international wrestling if all athletes went to train under 1 roof at OTC nobody would donate $ why because it doesn't benefit there team.Everybody thinks RTC have made us better just think if all our athletes trained under 1 roof instead of training with college guys all the time.And the coaches are worried about the season and training there guys then at night or at a different time RTC has practice they're not the main focus and are being used to build a brand. 

OK so why can the Brands be at HWC but not the fictional "Black and Gold" club referenced above?   

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1 hour ago, calot said:

NCAA has rules and compliance setup for clubs.RTC isn't tied to NCAA at all it's policed by USAW.

This isn't quite true. Yes, the compliance manual doesn't specify the relevant distances or criteria for PSAs and Coaches but it does state that the regional training programs must select these participants in a means outlined by the relevant NGB.

13.11.3 Tryout Exceptions. 

13.11.3.3 State, Regional, National or International Training Programs. Participation by an institution’s athletics department staff member in recognized state, regional, national or international training programs or competition organized and administered by the applicable governing body shall not be considered tryouts, provided the athletics department staff member is selected by the applicable governing body and the participants are selected by an authority or a committee of the applicable governing body that is not limited to athletics department staff members affiliated with one institution. A member institution’s coaching staff member may not participate only in noncoaching activities (e.g., consultant, on-site coordinator, participant selection), except as provided in Bylaws 13.11.3.3.1, 13.11.3.3.2 and 13.11.3.3.3. [D] (Revised: 1/9/96, 11/10/97, 4/28/11 effective 8/1/11) 

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:42 AM, calot said:

NCAA has rules and compliance setup for clubs.RTC isn't tied to NCAA at all it's policed by USAW.RTC are actually hurting us more then helping us internationally.RTC are helping colleges recruit and get better.RTC athletes are used as a recruiting tool.The reason RTC need to be tied to a university is that's the way to get the funding college fans donate money to there team which funds the RTC and helps them recruit college athletes.Wrestling fans care about college wrestling not international wrestling if all athletes went to train under 1 roof at OTC nobody would donate $ why because it doesn't benefit there team.Everybody thinks RTC have made us better just think if all our athletes trained under 1 roof instead of training with college guys all the time.And the coaches are worried about the season and training there guys then at night or at a different time RTC has practice they're not the main focus and are being used to build a brand. 

Terrible take. RTC's allow our nation's top athletes to continue to stay in the sport and be compensated for it. Askren speaks to this saying if they had RTC's in his era he definitely would have stuck with the sport. Sure, many Senior Level athletes are wrestling with college students. But guess who the next Senior Level athletes are going to be? Likely those same college wrestlers. Restrictions are being made against recruiting with RTC's but to say they have hurt us internationally after the success we've had since their induction is ridiculous and wrong.   

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33 minutes ago, LHU125 said:

Terrible take. RTC's allow our nation's top athletes to continue to stay in the sport and be compensated for it. Askren speaks to this saying if they had RTC's in his era he definitely would have stuck with the sport. Sure, many Senior Level athletes are wrestling with college students. But guess who the next Senior Level athletes are going to be? Likely those same college wrestlers. Restrictions are being made against recruiting with RTC's but to say they have hurt us internationally after the success we've had since their induction is ridiculous and wrong.   

If all the RTC money from every college was put together and all senior level athletes trained together we would be better.That will never happen because the money is being donated by folkstyle fans who support the college.Thats the reason the OTC situation stopped was funding nobody cares enough about freestyle to donate to it.The RTC is setup to benefit the college which also pays some RTC athletes.

Edited by calot

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