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NJDan

Cornell and Mike Grey and Kyle Dake

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Cornell has promoted Grey to Associate Head Coach, which was  Damian Hahn's title, I believe.

But if Koll decides to retire, isn't the obvious move to hire Dake (assuming he wants the job). Regardless of who would be a better coach, Dake with his success, fame and charisma would be a far stronger recruiter. And in coaching, recruiting is everything.

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Eventually maybe, but going from focusing on your own career to head coach, especially at a powerhouse, doesn’t really happen anymore for good reason. 

It isn’t just a wrestling job (and even there, I doubt even guys like Dake can coach like our veteran coaches yet - that itself is a skill that takes years to develop). You are a CEO, have to deal with internal politics, infra school politics, ivy politics, fundraising, logistics, leading a team of other type As (or at least intense high level former wrestlers)...

I also don’t think there is much of a difference recruiting wise to have Dake on staff vs being head coach. What high level recruit would choose Cornell only if Dake was head coach? As long as they get to train with him, especially after he retires which is what this post is about, would be enough I assume

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7 hours ago, NJDan said:

But if Koll decides to retire, isn't the obvious move to hire Dake ( assuming he wants the job)

So many things to question in just that one sentence.  Suffice to say I think Mike Grey is the right choice at this time; he's learned the system, obviously has earned the trust of the wrestlers, and this is a good move to show him some love and also assure recruits that there is a vision towards the future.  Dake meanwhile has his focus on competing - as he should.

Good move by Koll & Co., IMO.

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Have any Cornell wrestlers credited working with Dake as part of their success (honest question)?  Obviously quite a few notable ones (such as Garrett and Yianni) have credited Grey.  Yes Grey needs more than just a good track record with lightweights to be a successful HC (and probably already does), but it’s certainly a good start.   

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Have any Cornell wrestlers credited working with Dake as part of their success (honest question)?  Obviously quite a few notable ones (such as Garrett and Yianni) have credited Grey.  Yes Grey needs more than just a good track record with lightweights to be a successful HC (and probably already does), but it’s certainly a good start.   

It depends what you mean, but plenty have noted that training with Kyle has been very helpful. 

Both Deans have said it, as has Honis. I’m sure Darmstadt too but i don’t specifically recall that. 

Mir’s actually kind of interesting that Cornell’s weakest weights are around the middle (and heavyweight), right around Dake’s weight (at least the weight he should be at body wise)

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3 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Eventually maybe, but going from focusing on your own career to head coach, especially at a powerhouse, doesn’t really happen anymore for good reason. 

It isn’t just a wrestling job (and even there, I doubt even guys like Dake can coach like our veteran coaches yet - that itself is a skill that takes years to develop). You are a CEO, have to deal with internal politics, infra school politics, ivy politics, fundraising, logistics, leading a team of other type As (or at least intense high level former wrestlers)...

I also don’t think there is much of a difference recruiting wise to have Dake on staff vs being head coach. What high level recruit would choose Cornell only if Dake was head coach? As long as they get to train with him, especially after he retires which is what this post is about, would be enough I assume

So I had initial thoughts when reading the original post, wanted to read through before posting, and this pretty much mirrored my thoughts. 

Mike Grey fits into the Rob Koll’s and Tom Ryan’s of the world. They were definitely successful athletes, but not the legendary status as others with international gold medals. What they are are great CEO’s of their program,  with international accolades involved in their program.  By all accounts Grey should mold into a real good CEO, though there is a growing curve. 

From a recruiting standpoint, Kyle Dake will be in the room and hands on, maybe even more as an assistant than as the HC, which I would think would be even more attractive to recruits. It would for me as an athlete for sure. 

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12 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So I had initial thoughts when reading the original post, wanted to read through before posting, and this pretty much mirrored my thoughts. 

Mike Grey fits into the Rob Koll’s and Tom Ryan’s of the world. They were definitely successful athletes, but not the legendary status as others with international gold medals. What they are are great CEO’s of their program,  with international accolades involved in their program.  By all accounts Grey should mold into a real good CEO, though there is a growing curve. 

From a recruiting standpoint, Kyle Dake will be in the room and hands on, maybe even more as an assistant than as the HC, which I would think would be even more attractive to recruits. It would for me as an athlete for sure. 

Koll was an NCAA champ. Grey had a good career, but is not in that mold. No offense, but he is not charismatic in the way Hahn and Dake are.

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Just now, NJDan said:

Koll was an NCAA champ. Grey had a good career, but is not in that mold. No offense, but he is not charismatic in the way Hahn and Dake are.

That’s what I was saying, succesful career but not legendary status. 

Wont agree or disagree with how charismatic as some others. You don’t think Dake/Taylor...etc are involved in the recruiting? That those charismatic qualities won’t be on display every day regardless of their position staff? Have to look at the entire picture, entire program structure.  

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8 hours ago, NJDan said:

Koll was an NCAA champ. Grey had a good career, but is not in that mold. No offense, but he is not charismatic in the way Hahn and Dake are.

And several times AA and very good on our World Team ladder just behind a couple legends.

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Does anyone know if Dake is a good coach?  Sure, he is a stud wrestler.  But can he motivate, train, and connect with those that he coaches?

Grey is showing he is an excellent coach.  

Dake may be as well but we shouldn’t assume.

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24 minutes ago, nom said:

Does anyone know if Dake is a good coach?  Sure, he is a stud wrestler.  But can he motivate, train, and connect with those that he coaches?

Grey is showing he is an excellent coach.  

Dake may be as well but we shouldn’t assume.

Dake is a wrestling savant. No one knows more than he.

 

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12 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Is Dake really charismatic?  Most of what I see him do is complain to/about refs

He is extremely confident and credentialed, which is half the battle. I’m sure with some training he could be a great leader. He is clearly coachable. 

Is he a Bono level motivator? Doubt it, but neither is Koll. That isn’t a job requirement but clearly it helps

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3 minutes ago, IronChef said:

I have never seen anything from Dake to suggest he is particularly charismatic. I'm curious what those saying he is are basing their opinion on.

Yea I agree I never thought of him as charismatic either , personally him and Taylor always have come across as whiny , not saying he won’t be a good a coach one day , but in my opinion I think grey is the next coach. Just because he didn’t have the same college success as dake doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be  better coach.Anyone whose ever been around grey will tell you he’s one of ,if not the best wrestling minds in the sport , and from personal experience many years ago I know he’s very good at explaining and breaking things down from a coaching standpoint and he’s been Koll shadow for a few years  tackling the whole CEO aspect of the job either way when koll goes I don’t think Cornell will miss beat

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2 hours ago, Dr. Novak said:

Dake made Cornell.  Fell in Koll's lap.  Gable has a statue they should erect one of Dake in front of Friedman.

I think that distinction should go to Travis Lee. He was the first "household name" from that program and recruiting really picked up after Travis Lee won his first title.

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23 hours ago, Lurker said:

So I had initial thoughts when reading the original post, wanted to read through before posting, and this pretty much mirrored my thoughts. 

Mike Grey fits into the Rob Koll’s and Tom Ryan’s of the world. They were definitely successful athletes, but not the legendary status as others with international gold medals. What they are are great CEO’s of their program,  with international accolades involved in their program.  By all accounts Grey should mold into a real good CEO, though there is a growing curve. 

From a recruiting standpoint, Kyle Dake will be in the room and hands on, maybe even more as an assistant than as the HC, which I would think would be even more attractive to recruits. It would for me as an athlete for sure. 

Dake sticking around long term as an assistant after he’s done competing is an unrealistic scenario. He’s more ambitious than that and once he’s done competing will be on the short list (or at least asked to interview) for pretty much every D1 Head coaching job that opens up. He’s got a wife and growing family. I don’t know how much Cornell can pay its assistant wrestling coaches, but I do know Damion Hahn left Cornell for a $130k year HC job that required him to move his family to South Dakota. 

Dake’s not Damion Hahn, and I’m sure Cornell would offer him more than they’ve paid other assistants because of his recruiting and fundraising draw...but I still think it’s unrealistic to think Dake’s going to settle for anything less than a HC job long-term. 

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15 minutes ago, MDogg said:

Dake sticking around long term as an assistant after he’s done competing is an unrealistic scenario. He’s more ambitious than that and once he’s done competing will be on the short list (or at least asked to interview) for pretty much every D1 Head coaching job that opens up. He’s got a wife and growing family. I don’t know how much Cornell can pay its assistant wrestling coaches, but I do know Damion Hahn left Cornell for a $130k year HC job that required him to move his family to South Dakota. 

Dake’s not Damion Hahn, and I’m sure Cornell would offer him more than they’ve paid other assistants because of his recruiting and fundraising draw...but I still think it’s unrealistic to think Dake’s going to settle for anything less than a HC job long-term. 

Don't necessarily disagree with that, my point of the post was how much of a draw having Dake on staff would be to recruits, HC vs another position on staff, so in that regard I'm looking at it from the recruits perspective, and Cornell's perspective of Grey being an established coach, in their program for the last 8 years as a coach, and putting him in the CEO position.

I don't doubt the things you stated, but do we know those are his long term plans/goals.  Do we know that he would want to be a HC right out of the gate? Do we know what his viable revenue opportunities are without being a HC? I don't know that I've ever heard him talking of these things.  Not to say he doesn't, I just dont want to take things for fact if they are assumptions.  I would think that if they are making this kind of movement with Grey, these things have been talked about at the very least, in preparations for structuring after Koll retires to keep the trend going at Cornell.  That's often how these associate head coach positions come into play. That too though is an assumption on my part.

Edited by Lurker

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4 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Don't necessarily disagree with that, my point of the post was how much of a draw having Dake on staff would be to recruits, HC vs another position on staff, so in that regard I'm looking at it from the recruits perspective, and Cornell's perspective of Grey being an established coach, in their program for the last 8 years as a coach, and putting him in the CEO position.

I don't doubt the things you stated, but do we know those are his long term plans/goals.  Do we know that he would want to be a HC right out of the gate? Do we know what his viable revenue opportunities are without being a HC? I don't know that I've ever heard him talking of these things.  Not to say he doesn't, I just dont want to take things for fact if they are assumptions.  I would think that if they are making this kind of movement with Grey, these things have been talked about at the very least, in preparations for structuring after Koll retires to keep the trend going at Cornell.  That's often how these associate head coach positions come into play. That too though is an assumption on my part.

I can’t say I know what his specific plans are, but this whole discussion is predicated on him going into coaching...because if he doesn’t then our talk of him being an assistant vs head coach is moot. 

I agree that he’d be a huge draw as an assistant who runs the room...I just doubt he’d settle for having Mike Grey (or anyone else) be his boss for anything other than a short transition period once he’s done competing. 

I’m not saying he’ll be a HC somewhere else the year after he retires. I’d expect him to be selective and it could take some time before a job opens up that he’s interested in.

My guess is that neither Cornell nor Dake know the timeframe for when he’s going to stop competing. I’m of the opinion that Dake will compete through 2024 if he doesn’t get his Olympic gold in Tokyo. I don’t think he keeps competing after Tokyo if he comes home with gold.

HOWEVER I do recognize that very, very, very few people walk away from wrestling when they’re on a 3 year world/Olympic championship streak. It’ll probably be awfully tempting for him to look at giving it another quad and potentially going out as a 7x consecutive world champ (including 2 Olympic golds) on top of his 4 NCAA titles. The conversation about Dake would shift from where does he rank amongst the all time US greats to where does he rank amongst the all time world greats.

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