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Cox in 86 Kg?

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14 hours ago, Lurker said:

I was thinking about this the other day. And if this happens as you stayed (world team member first to go to pan am qualifier) 86kg could potentially have Cox in the bottom bracket semi. Downey as the 1 seed by virtue of qualifying the weight, And Taylor also sitting at the bottom bracket as the 2/3 seed  

 

That is interesting.  I know the wrestler that qualifies the weight gets the 1 seed automatically, but I had in my mind that would be 5th place finishers at worlds.  I hadn't thought that there are other qualifying tournaments before the trials. Not only are Pam Ams March 6, but there is the Pan Am qualifying tournament a week later on March 13. Back in 2012 qualifying 60kg was an issue.  I think they sent Bunch to one and Humphrey to the other. Humphrey was the rep at worlds in 2011.  Maybe they send Downey to one and Cox or Taylor to the other if Downey doesn't qualify the weight.  I just hope they don't push the final wrestle-off for the Olympic spot.

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

That is interesting.  I know the wrestler that qualifies the weight gets the 1 seed automatically, but I had in my mind that would be 5th place finishers at worlds.  I hadn't thought that there are other qualifying tournaments before the trials. Not only are Pam Ams March 6, but there is the Pan Am qualifying tournament a week later on March 13. Back in 2012 qualifying 60kg was an issue.  I think they sent Bunch to one and Humphrey to the other. Humphrey was the rep at worlds in 2011.  Maybe they send Downey to one and Cox or Taylor to the other if Downey doesn't qualify the weight.  I just hope they don't push the final wrestle-off for the Olympic spot.

Qualifiying the Olympic spot is the primary goal, so if we push back the wrestle-off then so be it

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

That is interesting.  I know the wrestler that qualifies the weight gets the 1 seed automatically, but I had in my mind that would be 5th place finishers at worlds.  I hadn't thought that there are other qualifying tournaments before the trials. Not only are Pam Ams March 6, but there is the Pan Am qualifying tournament a week later on March 13. Back in 2012 qualifying 60kg was an issue.  I think they sent Bunch to one and Humphrey to the other. Humphrey was the rep at worlds in 2011.  Maybe they send Downey to one and Cox or Taylor to the other if Downey doesn't qualify the weight.  I just hope they don't push the final wrestle-off for the Olympic spot.

Man, I hate to be that person because I was happy Downey got to go to the worlds.  He earned.  The circumstances of Taylor and his announcements I do think made a difference of who went to the trials at that weight. 

While I know he earned that position from the trials, i do hope they send someone other than him to the qualifiers.  There is just to much at stake.  The Olympics are only every 4 years.  Derringer right now is the probably the most accomplished guy available to go get that spot, other than Dake.  Maybe Bo depending on how he does at the U23

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5 minutes ago, Gantry said:

People keep mentioning Bo at 86 but has he wavered at all in his intention to wrestle 97 kilos?  Seemed pretty set on that, undersized and all.  Just wondering if something changed...

I am just going by inferences made from social media, but I think he has committed to going up. That could be all wrong, but its my take of things. Fwiw.

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1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

Qualifiying the Olympic spot is the primary goal, so if we push back the wrestle-off then so be it

The Pan Am Qualifier tournament (Ottawa March 13-15) is three weeks before the trials (April 4-5).  The last qualifier (worldwide participation) is 4 weeks later (April 30-May 3) in Bulgaria.   The trials pretty much splits the difference.  I am fine with that.  What's the rationale for a delay?  That Downey needs more time to recover from the March 13 tournament for the Trails?  Possibly. Is there a fear that he won't want to go because he thinks it will hurt his trials performance?  I doubt it since he will get the #1 seed if he's top 2.  My vote would be to send Downey March 13, have the trials as scheduled April 4th and then send the trials winner April 30th if the weight isn't qualified. 

Last time what they did was nonsense, but the timing was worse than this cycle. The Pam Am qualifier was March 23-25, the Trails were April 20, the first global qualifying tournament was April 27-29, and the second was May 4-6.  That's one and two weeks after the trials instead of 4.  If three weeks before and four weeks after is a concern we could repeat their nonsense.  Send Downey to the Pan Am Qualifier March 13.  Have a trials tournament on April 4-5.  Send Heflin on April 30.  If the weight is qualified then have the trials winner wrestle Downey with the winner getting a best of three against Heflin the same day.  That mini tournament takes place early of June.

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3 hours ago, Fishbane said:

That is interesting.  I know the wrestler that qualifies the weight gets the 1 seed automatically, but I had in my mind that would be 5th place finishers at worlds.  I hadn't thought that there are other qualifying tournaments before the trials. Not only are Pam Ams March 6, but there is the Pan Am qualifying tournament a week later on March 13. Back in 2012 qualifying 60kg was an issue.  I think they sent Bunch to one and Humphrey to the other. Humphrey was the rep at worlds in 2011.  Maybe they send Downey to one and Cox or Taylor to the other if Downey doesn't qualify the weight.  I just hope they don't push the final wrestle-off for the Olympic spot.

There is only one other qualifier before the Trials, and that is the Pan Am qualifier.  If we do not qualify the weight there, whoever wins the trials goes to the last chance.  So it would be interesting if they do the blanket world team to the Pan Am, or if they pick and choose who goes to attempt to qualify.  This is the case at 57, 65, 86, and 125.  Makes for some interesting thoughts if they don't.  at 57 Fix is the team member and won the Pan Am's, no brainer.  65....Zain already had a shot at the Cuban, do they give Yianni a shot?  86 is 86, and what if Cox announces next week he's going down?  Adds more to the mix of Pan Am's.  125 is a no brainer.

 

Edit:  Oops I see you were typing as I was.

Edited by Lurker

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

There is only one other qualifier before the Trials, and that is the Pan Am qualifier.  If we do not qualify the weight there, whoever wins the trials goes to the last chance.  So it would be interesting if they do the blanket world team to the Pan Am, or if they pick and choose who goes to attempt to qualify.  This is the case at 57, 65, 86, and 125.  Makes for some interesting thoughts if they don't.  at 57 Fix is the team member and won the Pan Am's, no brainer.  65....Zain already had a shot at the Cuban, do they give Yianni a shot?  86 is 86, and what if Cox announces next week he's going down?  Adds more to the mix of Pan Am's.  125 is a no brainer.

Right there are only two qualifiers this year, but two qualifying spots per weight per tournament.  So Zain would only need to be top 2 to qualify 65kg.  Also it's a week after the Pan Am Championships so it would be interesting who goes to that at the unqualified weights.

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1 minute ago, Fishbane said:

Right there are only two qualifiers this year, but two qualifying spots per weight per tournament.  So Zain would only need to be top 2 to qualify 65kg.  Also it's a week after the Pan Am Championships so it would be interesting who goes to that at the unqualified weights.

Whoever goes, in my opinion really needs to make that final.  I don't think we want to have to go to Europe to qualify any weight, but particularly that one.  That is going to be a tough bracket. Alot of tough dudes and solid nations still need to get there.

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10 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

The Pan Am Qualifier tournament (Ottawa March 13-15) is three weeks before the trials (April 4-5).  The last qualifier (worldwide participation) is 4 weeks later (April 30-May 3) in Bulgaria.   The trials pretty much splits the difference.  I am fine with that.  What's the rationale for a delay?  That Downey needs more time to recover from the March 13 tournament for the Trails?  Possibly. Is there a fear that he won't want to go because he thinks it will hurt his trials performance?  I doubt it since he will get the #1 seed if he's top 2.  My vote would be to send Downey March 13, have the trials as scheduled April 4th and then send the trials winner April 30th if the weight isn't qualified. 

Last time what they did was nonsense, but the timing was worse than this cycle. The Pam Am qualifier was March 23-25, the Trails were April 20, the first global qualifying tournament was April 27-29, and the second was May 4-6.  That's one and two weeks after the trials instead of 4.  If three weeks before and four weeks after is a concern we could repeat their nonsense.  Send Downey to the Pan Am Qualifier March 13.  Have a trials tournament on April 4-5.  Send Heflin on April 30.  If the weight is qualified then have the trials winner wrestle Downey with the winner getting a best of three against Heflin the same day.  That mini tournament takes place early of June.

Neither Downey nor Heflin will qualify the weight, hopefully they send whoever wins the us open to give us a real shot at qualifying the weight. Let’s just hope Taylor is healthy because if Cox is going down I doubt he’ll wrestle too often because that cut is going to be brutal for him. 

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Just now, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Neither Downey nor Heflin will qualify the weight, hopefully they send whoever wins the us open to give us a real shot at qualifying the weight. Let’s just hope Taylor is healthy because if Cox is going down I doubt he’ll wrestle too often because that cut is going to be brutal for him. 

If I had a vote this is how I would it would be decided.  Gives incentive to wrestle the open and there's plenty room in between.  

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2 minutes ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Neither Downey nor Heflin will qualify the weight, hopefully they send whoever wins the us open to give us a real shot at qualifying the weight. Let’s just hope Taylor is healthy because if Cox is going down I doubt he’ll wrestle too often because that cut is going to be brutal for him. 

In 2012 they used the two in the finals of the WTT the year before (2011). This year it's a little trickier because maybe the top two guys (Taylor and Cox and possibly 3-6 either Dake, Dieringer, Valencia, Bo Nickal) weren't in that bracket.  I think the obvious choice for the Pan Am qualifier is Downey and I think Downey could qualify the weight.  Only the Cuban really worries me and Downey could win that or be on the opposite side of the bracket and qualify the weight since the top 2 qualify.  He was 3rd at the Pan Am games losing only to the Cuban.  The obvious choice for the Word Qualifier is the winner of the Trials.  

The point is that if you exempt two guys from the trials to try and qualify the weight then you run the risk of not sending the best guy out there to qualify the weight at any tournament which is what happened at 60kg in 2012 even though the weight ultimately was qualified.  It also raises the questions of who do you send to the second one?  Cox seems like the choice to have skip the trials to prepare for it, since he has earned a bye anyway and giving Downey a pass already kind of screws up the returning medalist advantage, but do you know how he will handle the weight cut?  If we send Taylor there may be questions about his health. Ultimately maybe Ringer is the best guy and wins the trials only to watch some combination of Downey, Cox, and Taylor blow qualification.  Sending the US Open winner is not an option.  There is no 2020 US Open.  If you are talking about the winner of the 2019 US Open that was Pat Downey.

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Taylor is second on the USNT ladder, so it would be in the best interest to send him to Pan Am regional. After that he will be the #1 seed and be the opposite side of Cox (bottom bracket), and they won't meet until the OTT best of three (I assume Taylor will skip the US open and needlessly face potential injury). That is of course if Cox decides to go 86; otherwise the weight is DT's to lose.

Edited by bnwtwg

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8 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Taylor is second on the USNT ladder, so it would be in the best interest to send him to Pan Am regional. After that he will be the #1 seed and be the opposite side of Cox (bottom bracket), and they won't meet until the OTT best of three (I assume Taylor will skip the US open and needlessly face potential injury). That is of course if Cox decides to go 86; otherwise the weight is DT's to lose.

That's right.  The ladder is Downey, Taylor, then Heflin.  Still why send Taylor to the Pan Am Qualifier over Downey?

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38 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

That's right.  The ladder is Downey, Taylor, then Heflin.  Still why send Taylor to the Pan Am Qualifier over Downey?

Who would you rather have attempt to finish top-2 and qualify the weight? The 2017 world champ, or the 2018 world rep who went 2-1 and was teched out of the building?

It's not a knock against Downey it's just common sense. If I need to close a huge deal for my company I send my best sales person, not someone who has had mixed results and had a recent big client that fizzled out after 6 months.

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Honestly gents...reality is unless Downey is injured or flat out withdraws his name he earned the right to represent USA as our #1 at Pan Ams. Likelihood of him qualifying us be damned or not.

After him it would be DT, who I might imagine would take it.

There is no precedence since we haven't had to worry about contraction with this scenario before. Would they have a special wrestleoff between, say Ringer and Heflin?

It is legit a few weeks before the OTT. Nobody is going to want to have to speak a few weeks apart. I would be willing to wager we have to await the last chance qualifier again. We could very well see someone very low on our ladder heading down there with how close it is. Chandler Rogers anyone?

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16 hours ago, Fishbane said:

In 2012 they used the two in the finals of the WTT the year before (2011). This year it's a little trickier because maybe the top two guys (Taylor and Cox and possibly 3-6 either Dake, Dieringer, Valencia, Bo Nickal) weren't in that bracket.  I think the obvious choice for the Pan Am qualifier is Downey and I think Downey could qualify the weight.  Only the Cuban really worries me and Downey could win that or be on the opposite side of the bracket and qualify the weight since the top 2 qualify.  He was 3rd at the Pan Am games losing only to the Cuban.  The obvious choice for the Word Qualifier is the winner of the Trials.  

The point is that if you exempt two guys from the trials to try and qualify the weight then you run the risk of not sending the best guy out there to qualify the weight at any tournament which is what happened at 60kg in 2012 even though the weight ultimately was qualified.  It also raises the questions of who do you send to the second one?  Cox seems like the choice to have skip the trials to prepare for it, since he has earned a bye anyway and giving Downey a pass already kind of screws up the returning medalist advantage, but do you know how he will handle the weight cut?  If we send Taylor there may be questions about his health. Ultimately maybe Ringer is the best guy and wins the trials only to watch some combination of Downey, Cox, and Taylor blow qualification.  Sending the US Open winner is not an option.  There is no 2020 US Open.  If you are talking about the winner of the 2019 US Open that was Pat Downey.

Correct, the “2020” US open happens in December 2019. So that’s the tournament I was talking about. 

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2 hours ago, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Correct, the “2020” US open happens in December 2019. So that’s the tournament I was talking about. 

There is no US Open in December 2019.  There is an open qualifying tournament for the Olympic trials with the top 5 qualifying for the trials. Many athletes would have already qualified and others will choose to qualify by other means so there is no reason for them to enter. Taylor, Downey, Cox and Dake have already qualified for the Olympic trials. I think it would be a bad idea to use this as a wrestle off for who goes to the pan am qualifier as it wasn't set up to be that.   

Muhamed Mcbryde (79kg), Max Dean (86kg), and Bo Nickal (92kg) can also qualify for the Olympic trials should they win U23 worlds later this month.  The top US medalist at each weight that hasn't already qualified at Bill Farrell next month will qualify too.  It's possible for Taylor, Downey, Cox, Dake, Nickal, Heflin and Dieringer to be qualified before December.

Edited by Fishbane

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17 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Honestly gents...reality is unless Downey is injured or flat out withdraws his name he earned the right to represent USA as our #1 at Pan Ams. Likelihood of him qualifying us be damned or not.

After him it would be DT, who I might imagine would take it.

There is no precedence since we haven't had to worry about contraction with this scenario before. Would they have a special wrestleoff between, say Ringer and Heflin?

It is legit a few weeks before the OTT. Nobody is going to want to have to speak a few weeks apart. I would be willing to wager we have to await the last chance qualifier again. We could very well see someone very low on our ladder heading down there with how close it is. Chandler Rogers anyone?

This should be the procedure and for greco it is.  Below are the procedures for selecting the rep for the Pan Am qualifier for greco and women's freestyle.  Men's freestyle has not been released yet.  If they go with the greco procedures it's Downey's spot.  If they go with the women's freestyle procedure Gilman, Colon, Green, Burroughs, Dake, Taylor, Cox, Snyder and Gwiz have the right to challenge for the spot.

Greco

1. 2019 Greco-Roman World Team member returning to the same Olympic weight.

2. December 2019 Greco-Roman Olympic Trials Qualifier

  • a. Top two place finishers (1st & 2nd – Olympic weights) will establish the #2 and #3 rank order

3. If the team can NOT be filled with the 2019 National Team in rank order, selections will be made by the Greco-Roman National Teams coaching staff.

  • a. The selections will be made based off results during Fall 2019 & Winter 2020 competitions.
  • b. Competitive readiness will also be taken into consideration.

Women's Freestyle

1. The 2019 Senior World Team Member (Olympic weights) will be the U.S. representative; however,

2. A senior world medalist, at any weight, within this quad (2017-2019) will be given the opportunity to challenge the 2019 Senior World Team Member for the spot.

  • a. If there is more than one challenger in a weight, there will be a single elimination tournament to determine who will challenge the 2019 World Team Member.
  • b. There will be a best of three series between the 2019 Senior World Team Member and the challenger to determine who will earn the spot.

3. If a 2019 Senior World Team Member, from an Olympic weight, vacates the weight; there will be a best of three series between the #2 and #3 National Team members at that weight to determine the spot.

*A 2019 Senior World Team Member (Olympic Weights) that chooses not to participate in the event, without a certified medical reason, will automatically lose that month's National Team stipend.

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3 hours ago, Fishbane said:

This should be the procedure and for greco it is.  Below are the procedures for selecting the rep for the Pan Am qualifier for greco and women's freestyle.  Men's freestyle has not been released yet.  If they go with the greco procedures it's Downey's spot.  If they go with the women's freestyle procedure Gilman, Colon, Green, Burroughs, Dake, Taylor, Cox, Snyder and Gwiz have the right to challenge for the spot.

There is a much bigger benefit if you qualify the weight in WFS and greco as whoever qualifies the weight gets a bye to the finals of the OTT.   Thus the established and published selection criteria.

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On 10/1/2019 at 5:39 PM, nhs67 said:

Honestly gents...reality is unless Downey is injured or flat out withdraws his name he earned the right to represent USA as our #1 at Pan Ams. Likelihood of him qualifying us be damned or not.

After him it would be DT, who I might imagine would take it.

There is no precedence since we haven't had to worry about contraction with this scenario before. Would they have a special wrestleoff between, say Ringer and Heflin?

It is legit a few weeks before the OTT. Nobody is going to want to have to speak a few weeks apart. I would be willing to wager we have to await the last chance qualifier again. We could very well see someone very low on our ladder heading down there with how close it is. Chandler Rogers anyone?

If DT is ready to go they should send him - If Cox decides to compete at 86kg he is an equally good choice.  If either of our two world champions are available to qualify the weight it is a no brainer to send one of them.  It would also be in their interest to make themselves available.

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33 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

If DT is ready to go they should send him - If Cox decides to compete at 86kg he is an equally good choice.  If either of our two world champions are available to qualify the weight it is a no brainer to send one of them.  It would also be in their interest to make themselves available.

I agree. Entirely. You'll see if you search me on Downey subjects I was also a huge proponent of giving Ringer or Nickal an opportunity to wrestleoff for a shot at worlds.

I agree I was inappropriate in my wishes and desires despite the actual abilities of all parties in involved then.

If procedure is as the US Men's Greco team then it MUST go Downey then Taylor then Heflin then coaches choice based off this last freestyle season's results. Now does that mean results at 86 or just results?

If procedure is as the US Women's Freestyle team, then any medalist this cycle has the right to challenge, and Cox then can challenge for sure.

This being said they must prove why and how they aren't ABLE(not willing) to go, if called  upon or they will lose their monthly stipend.

Honestly even as one of his largest detractors on here the procedure and timing of Pan-Ams this year has me more than a little annoyed. I want the best Downey we can get at the Oly-trials. If he cannot go due to injury we do not get the best version three weeks later. If he does go we do not get the best version three weeks later, due to him needing to peak for Pan-Ams.

I understand the whole 'Beat the best to be the best' but this seems like it screws him over.

Edited by nhs67
Fat fingers...

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55 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Honestly even as one of his largest detractors on here the procedure and timing of Pan-Ams this year has me more than a little annoyed. I want the best Downey we can get at the Oly-trials. If he cannot go due to injury we do not get the best version three weeks later. If he does go we do not get the best version three weeks later, due to him needing to peak for Pan-Ams.

I understand the whole 'Beat the best to be the best' but this seems like it screws him over.

I don’t think any of this screws him over: 1) because just on it’s surface it doesn’t screw anyone over. It’s the established process and he is just one of many in the current situation. And mostly 2) because he had the opportunity to qualify the weight and not be in this predicament...he didn’t get it done. I don’t see how this is screwing him over in any way  

 

Edited by Lurker

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56 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I don’t think any of this screws him over: 1) because just on it’s surface it doesn’t screw anyone over. It’s the established process and he is just one of many in the current situation. And mostly 2) because he had the opportunity to qualify the weight and not be in this predicament...he didn’t get it done. I don’t see how this is screwing him over in any way  

 

You are correct in the latter part of it.

I would argue the first part only because USAWrestling could have scheduled the trials during the NCAA season and chose not to.

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