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Cox in 86 Kg?

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4 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

You are correct in the latter part of it.

I would argue the first part only because USAWrestling could have scheduled the trials during the NCAA season and chose not to.

When have the Olympic trials ever been held during the NCAA season? They are screwing him over by not doing something they’ve never done?  And even with that, an earlier or later tournament does not change the fact that there are many others in the same situation. How does holding the trials in April (instead of typically May or June) but not in February screw him over?

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

I don’t think any of this screws him over: 1) because just on it’s surface it doesn’t screw anyone over. It’s the established process and he is just one of many in the current situation. And mostly 2) because he had the opportunity to qualify the weight and not be in this predicament...he didn’t get it done. I don’t see how this is screwing him over in any way  

 

Actually, the US as a whole did not get the weight qualified - Downey was just the king of the 86kg hill for 2019, but he is certainly not the only wrestler to blame for this predicament. The same can be said for Gilman, Fix, Yianni, Zain, Gwiz, Steveson, Coon, etc. You win qualify as a team and you lose don't qualify as a team

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26 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Actually, the US as a whole did not get the weight qualified - Downey was just the king of the 86kg hill for 2019, but he is certainly not the only wrestler to blame for this predicament. The same can be said for Gilman, Fix, Yianni, Zain, Gwiz, Steveson, Coon, etc. You win qualify as a team and you lose don't qualify as a team

You’re basically saying what I’ve already said. I stated the fact that there are many in this predicament, as a way of countering the poster who said he is getting screwed over. I also stated he didn’t qualify the weight,  but not as a matter of blaming him. Just to again counter the poster who said he is getting screwed over, because he has had an opportunity to qualify the weight and didn’t.  It’s not in any way about blame, it’s about saying he’s being screwed over. I don’t see how he’s being screwed over. 

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Ahh my bad, and yes we agree. The USOC is ultimately responsible for this scheduling predicament - I wonder why they chose the competition calendar that they have put forth? I see pros and cons of multiple avenues so I'm curious why they decided this would be the best route.

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3 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

Ahh my bad, and yes we agree. The USOC is ultimately responsible for this scheduling predicament - I wonder why they chose the competition calendar that they have put forth? I see pros and cons of multiple avenues so I'm curious why they decided this would be the best route.

UWW schedule I would assume. Olympics are a little earlier than usual. Only two post world qualifiers as opposed to three. Plus you figure many college athletes will be in the mix, and at the time the schedule is set you have no idea who is taking an ORS, etc (not that you can factor the ‘who’ into your scheduling, but just the idea that having it during the NCAA season as was suggested is just not reasonable)

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Was it standard to have three qualifiers in the past? Is this the first year (or the first year in a while) there are only two? I never thought about it until reading this thread, but there is a very real chance we don’t qualify 65 kg. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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7 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Was it standard to have three qualifiers in the past? Is this the first year (or the first year in a while) there are only two? I never thought about it until reading this thread, but there is a very real chance we don’t qualify 65 kg. 

As the number in the bracket has shrank the qualifying process has as well. For example it used to be top 10 at world qualified. But now that we are down to 16 man bracket there’s less. in ‘16 there were two separate qualifiers beside the Continental. If you remember, Cox qualified by winning the tournament in Mongolia, and gorilla hulk only got in after the winner of the qualifier in Turkey got busted and he moved up. 

 

And yes I agree with your point of 65kg. I’ve said a few times in here the Pan Am is extremely important at 65. We DO NOT want to be in a spot where we have to qualify that weight in Hungary. 

Edited by Lurker

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I definitely remember that, which is why I said what I did about 65 kg. I have little doubt that we'll be able to qualify 86 kg for obvious reasons, but 65 is a much dicier weight class and the issue of who to send looms large there in particular. So basically we get two bites at the apple this year. Better make them count.

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2 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I definitely remember that, which is why I said what I did about 65 kg. I have little doubt that we'll be able to qualify 86 kg for obvious reasons, but 65 is a much dicier weight class and the issue of who to send looms large there in particular. So basically we get two bites at the apple this year. Better make them count.

Not only just two bites instead of three, but less spots in that bracket to qualify. Meaning some really, really good 65’s are going to be at home. 

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44 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

It's just one entry per country to the qualifiers?

Correct. And a country that has already qualified not allowed to enter. 

I’m curious if Gomez will stay at 74 or go back down to 65. I have to think he’s staying or he would have competed at 70, but if he didn’t like the feel at 74 and went back down, oh my the Pan Am just got a lot more interesting. 

Edited by Lurker

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Correct. And a country that has already qualified not allowed to enter. 

I’m curious if Gomez will stay at 74 or go back down to 65. I have to think he’s staying or he would have competed at 70, but if he didn’t like the feel at 65 and went back down, oh my the Pan Am just got a lot more interesting. 

Makes me excited to see how Nolf’s freestyle will evolve over the next year if he’s in the same room as Gomez at 74. Yes, it would be an interesting storyline for Pan Ams if he decides to go down.

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3 hours ago, Lurker said:

You’re basically saying what I’ve already said. I stated the fact that there are many in this predicament, as a way of countering the poster who said he is getting screwed over. I also stated he didn’t qualify the weight,  but not as a matter of blaming him. Just to again counter the poster who said he is getting screwed over, because he has had an opportunity to qualify the weight and didn’t.  It’s not in any way about blame, it’s about saying he’s being screwed over. I don’t see how he’s being screwed over. 

I would say Downey got screwed over if USAW just decides to send Cox to Taylor to the Pan Am Qualifier instead of him.  He won the world team trials at this weight.  That means he's the top guy on the ladder until the next trials.  He should get first crack at any tournament the US is sending a team to between Final X and the next trials/final X.  The same thing goes for Zain at 65kg, Fix at 57kg and Gwiz at 125.   If guys like Cox and Dake wanted more control in qualifying the weight they should have tried to get the spot at an Olympic weight this year.

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30 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

I would say Downey got screwed over if USAW just decides to send Cox to Taylor to the Pan Am Qualifier instead of him.  He won the world team trials at this weight.  That means he's the top guy on the ladder until the next trials.  He should get first crack at any tournament the US is sending a team to between Final X and the next trials/final X.  The same thing goes for Zain at 65kg, Fix at 57kg and Gwiz at 125.   If guys like Cox and Dake wanted more control in qualifying the weight they should have tried to get the spot at an Olympic weight this year.

In a lot of ways I agree with you.  IF that happens and they specifically leave him off while taking all of the other #1's, very very valid point.  On the other hand, this is a little different than the Yarigan or World Cup, this is to qualify the spot in the Olympics.  PD3 had a Pan Am Games (same countries and his result would not have qualified), and the World's where he didn't qualify.  I say if he's available there's no way Cox goes ahead of him (this is of course on the premise Cox goes 86) because of the ladder (again this is if they are just simply selecting the team), but I think there would be a very valid argument to send Taylor over him.  Taylor isn't the #1 guy because he lost, he isn't the #1 guy because he got injured doing an exhibition for the growth of the sport.  I think its justified in sending him over PD3.  Even adding in Cox, I mean we're looking at qualifying a weight for the games, and choices are medalist at that weight at the last Olympics, another guy who won the world title and named "OW" (so to speak), or a guy who's international record this past year was 3-4. I think looking at the situation as a whole, while I agree with you completely on Cox, I certainly see where the logic comes into play.

All that said, if I were to take a guess, I'd guess MFS procedures will look very similar to WFS procedures, and the situation at 86 will play a big part in those decisions.  I believe Taylor will challenge for that Pan Am spot. Just a total guess though.

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8 minutes ago, Lurker said:

In a lot of ways I agree with you.  IF that happens and they specifically leave him off while taking all of the other #1's, very very valid point.  On the other hand, this is a little different than the Yarigan or World Cup, this is to qualify the spot in the Olympics.  PD3 had a Pan Am Games (same countries and his result would not have qualified), and the World's where he didn't qualify.  I say if he's available there's no way Cox goes ahead of him (this is of course on the premise Cox goes 86) because of the ladder (again this is if they are just simply selecting the team), but I think there would be a very valid argument to send Taylor over him.  Taylor isn't the #1 guy because he lost, he isn't the #1 guy because he got injured doing an exhibition for the growth of the sport.  I think its justified in sending him over PD3.  Even adding in Cox, I mean we're looking at qualifying a weight for the games, and choices are medalist at that weight at the last Olympics, another guy who won the world title and named "OW" (so to speak), or a guy who's international record this past year was 3-4. I think looking at the situation as a whole, while I agree with you completely on Cox, I certainly see where the logic comes into play.

All that said, if I were to take a guess, I'd guess MFS procedures will look very similar to WFS procedures, and the situation at 86 will play a big part in those decisions.  I believe Taylor will challenge for that Pan Am spot. Just a total guess though.

The women's freestyle procedures are stupid.  It's almost like having the Olympic trials before the Olympic trials.  If Taylor wants to go then Downey would have to wrestle a best of three against him.  When would that take place?  Maybe early February.  So Downey has to wrestle off early February, try and qualify the weight mid March, and then has to wrestle off again at the Olympic trials in early April.  If he decides to just let Taylor go and try to qualify the weight because there isn't much to be gained by him then he loses his stipend for March?  Wrestle off with David Taylor or you don't get paid.  That sounds like a screw job to me. 

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1 minute ago, Fishbane said:

The women's freestyle procedures are stupid.  It's almost like having the Olympic trials before the Olympic trials.  If Taylor wants to go then Downey would have to wrestle a best of three against him.  When would that take place?  Maybe early February.  So Downey has to wrestle off early February, try and qualify the weight mid March, and then has to wrestle off again at the Olympic trials in early April.  If he decides to just let Taylor go and try to qualify the weight because there isn't much to be gained by him then he loses his stipend for March?  Wrestle off with David Taylor or you don't get paid.  That sounds like a screw job to me. 

Fair enough, valid point, but I will agree to disagree.  If it was Downey and Downey only we were talking about that were subject to these procedures I would agree more with the notion he is being screwed.  

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

I would say Downey got screwed over if USAW just decides to send Cox to Taylor to the Pan Am Qualifier instead of him.  He won the world team trials at this weight.  That means he's the top guy on the ladder until the next trials.  

Can't say how much I disagree with this.  At a certain point, we need to be realists. 

- Option 1: send a guy to qualify who has multiple losses in the past year to multiple competitors that will be at the qualifier.

- Option 2: send a world champ that hasn't lost in two years.  

The World Team Trials are to win the spot to compete at the World Championships, not the following year's Olympic qualification events.  Let's use our brains here. 

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If Taylor is healthy and we send Downey to qualify the weight and PD3 loses then Taylor got screwed. Taylor is a World Champ for God's sake. Downey has virtually no chance to win this weight at Olympic Trials vs. a healthy DT, J'Den Cox or even Ringer. I don't care that he won 2 matches at Worlds. That was draw dependent. 

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Taylor only gets screwed if Downey loses and then Taylor wins the trials, but even then not really.  Some will say that Taylor played himself by pulling out of Final X so late.  Still Taylor will have a chance to qualify the weight in Bulgaria so he isn't really even screwed.

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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

If Taylor is healthy and we send Downey to qualify the weight and PD3 loses then Taylor got screwed. Taylor is a World Champ for God's sake. Downey has virtually no chance to win this weight at Olympic Trials vs. a healthy DT, J'Den Cox or even Ringer. I don't care that he won 2 matches at Worlds. That was draw dependent. 

Not the best decision, agree.  Taylor would be screwed, can't disagree enough.  He's not the #1 guy.  Circumstances suck but he's not.  I wouldn't like if Taylor was healthy and didn't go, but you can't say he would be getting screwed.  (Well, I mean you can say anything, but you know what I mean).

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12 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Taylor only gets screwed if Downey loses and then Taylor wins the trials, but even then not really.  Some will say that Taylor played himself by pulling out of Final X so late.  Still Taylor will have a chance to qualify the weight in Bulgaria so he isn't really even screwed.

 

11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Not the best decision, agree.  Taylor would be screwed, can't disagree enough.  He's not the #1 guy.  Circumstances suck but he's not.  I wouldn't like if Taylor was healthy and didn't go, but you can't say he would be getting screwed.  (Well, I mean you can say anything, but you know what I mean).

 

Honest question, why do you guys actually want Downey to be the guy at the qualifier?  Is that just based on principal, or do you legitimately think he's our best option?

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Obviously, nobody legitimately thinks he's our best option. Principle matters. That said, if we send Downey purely based on ladder placement, we should have the brains to send DT/Cox to the second one if he doesn't qualify us in the first try. Therefore, I'm not really worried about 86 kg.

65 kg, though .... whole different can of worms and cause for legitimate concern.

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8 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Obviously, nobody legitimately thinks he's our best option. Principle matters. That said, if we send Downey purely based on ladder placement, we should have the brains to send DT/Cox to the second one if he doesn't qualify us in the first try. Therefore, I'm not really worried about 86 kg.

65 kg, though .... whole different can of worms and cause for legitimate concern.

There's got to be a middle ground between Russia and senseless rigidity, and there are always exceptions.  IMO having two returning world champs available qualifies as an exception.  

Can we really say we're using our brains if our plan is, "Have at it Downey. And don't worry if you fail, we can always send our better guys to the last chance qualifier!" 

In what world is that a prudent approach?  Pan Ams is undeniably the easier tournament.  Leave yourself up to the last chance and you're just asking for something to go wrong.  

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12 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

There's got to be a middle ground between Russia and senseless rigidity, and there are always exceptions.  IMO having two returning world champs available qualifies as an exception.  

Can we really say we're using our brains if our plan is, "Have at it Downey. And don't worry if you fail, we can always send our better guys to the last chance qualifier!" 

In what world is that a prudent approach?  Pan Ams is undeniably the easier tournament.  Leave yourself up to the last chance and you're just asking for something to go wrong.  

I'm not saying I'm in that camp. I'm saying that EVEN IF that were the situation, I'm not worried about 86 kg because even the proponents of principle will agree that one of two world champs should get a shot at qualifying their country versus a guy that would have failed multiple times by that point.

65 kg ... different situation.

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