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GreatWhiteNorth

WNO Supermatch: PD3 vs Nicky Rodriguez ?

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3 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

you said taekwondo is more popular than grappling in the USA. this is obviously incorrect. we will all assume you admit this and move on.

grappling and wrestling numbers for Flo are both very strong. i can't provide numbers but just look at the public social media numbers. Twitter, Facebook, Youtube and Instagram; they are all large and get high engagement. you are very mistaken if you think wrestling dwarves wrestling in popularity in the US. 

I called it less relevant because Taekwondo is actually an olympic sport while i've never seen a grappling event covered.  In terms of popularity, do you really think there are more people participating in submission grappling than Taekwondo and related karate disciplines?  I have no idea which sport between the two draws more viewership, but I doubt either really draw many eyeballs. 

 

You claimed that this is a win for the sport, while I contend that it is a very minor event that really doesn't matter at all for the sport.  I'm sure a couple people watched it and enjoyed the event, which is a good thing, but it is outrageously hyperbolic to think this has any impact whatsoever on the sport of wrestling.  Why are viewership numbers for flowrestling events secret?  Just post the number of viewers for PD3 vs the grappler compared to whatever the marquee matchup was for last year's WNO event.  I'll be happy to admit that this was a huge gain for the sport if the numbers support your claim.  

 

4 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

ALL combat sports contribute to wrestling because, at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, wrestlers win in MMA.

So because a couple of former wrestlers make money in MMA (while also likely receiving significant brain damage), grappling is good for college/international wrestling?  I'm sorry, but I don't follow this logic.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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One way that Flo kinda shines: Trying new things. I do not buy the claim that Downey v. Rodriguez works so well to Grow The Sport but nonetheless it's good to trial-analyze-discuss. Flo events have done experimentation several times--e.g., modified uniform, hybrid style, different styles from bout to bout, Final X formats--and so this """supermatch""" just the latest go.

Edited by jon

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

You claimed that this is a win for the sport, while I contend that it is a very minor event that really doesn't matter at all for the sport.  I'm sure a couple people watched it and enjoyed the event, which is a good thing, but it is outrageously hyperbolic to think this has any impact whatsoever on the sport of wrestling.  Why are viewership numbers for flowrestling events secret?  Just post the number of viewers for PD3 vs the grappler compared to whatever the marquee matchup was for last year's WNO event.

This.

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6 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

I mean as a subscriber to flo I see targeted ads for their other events and it seems as if the $$$ they make from flowrestling goes into trying to build their other brands. 

Yup.

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I am always interested to see guys with 2 different styles compete but making a BJJ submission athlete wrestle an accompished freestyle guy strictly in neutral didn't make sense.  Give the BJJ guy a chance in his specialty which I assume would be on the mat.

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2 minutes ago, pennsyrules said:

I am always interested to see guys with 2 different styles compete but making a BJJ submission athlete wrestle an accompished freestyle guy strictly in neutral didn't make sense.  Give the BJJ guy a chance in his specialty which I assume would be on the mat.

Nick wins his sub grappling matches primarily by bullying people in the feet  stylistically this was interesting for sub grappling fans  

if this was Miyao vs Zain is I’d agree with you

 

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Clearly I'm a former wrestler like the rest of us.  I currently train both Gi and No Gi BJJ.  As a former wrestler, my skill set immediately made me better than every other guy in my incoming class that started around the same time I did. By better, I mean that my standing game / defense / tie ups / takedowns.  However, once the wrestler gets into BJJ positions and situations, an entirely new world of technique and intent opens up.

PD3 whooping Nicky Rod based on the rules last night was simply expected.

Nicky Rod whooping PD3 on No GI rules would be just as devastating in the opposite direction.  

The match should have had two 3 minute periods, each period with rules that reflect their respective sport.  That would have been good for everyone, and not just a "dummy" put on the mat for PD3 to drill with. 

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But it was a dummy who formerly wrestled and had a huge size advantage. I’ve done both too and it was still interesting. I don’t know about a big win for the sport etc., but who cares? It was a fun match that probably had some grappling fans watching thrown into an outstanding night of HS wrestling. WNO has become my favorite HS event of the year and it wouldn’t even exist were it not for Flo. Poster Jon nails this a few posts above when he credits Flo for experimenting. 

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46 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

But it was a dummy who formerly wrestled and had a huge size advantage. I’ve done both too and it was still interesting. I don’t know about a big win for the sport etc., but who cares? It was a fun match that probably had some grappling fans watching thrown into an outstanding night of HS wrestling. WNO has become my favorite HS event of the year and it wouldn’t even exist were it not for Flo. Poster Jon nails this a few posts above when he credits Flo for experimenting. 

Pretty much this.  I don’t get the hate for the PD3/Rodriguez match.  Best case scenario it got some grappling fans to watch a wrestling match or maybe even a few.  Worst case scenario people probably used it as a time for a bathroom break.  BTW the social media stats are weird...FloGrappling actually has more Facebook likes than Flowrestling, but Wrestling’s twitter followed dwarf grappling’s.

That said, rhe rules basically gave Rodriguez no chance, so kudos to him for taking the match.  Yes he wrestled, but I believe I read he never even qualified for states in NJ.

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10 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

You claimed that this is a win for the sport, while I contend that it is a very minor event that really doesn't matter at all for the sport.  I'm sure a couple people watched it and enjoyed the event, which is a good thing, but it is outrageously hyperbolic to think this has any impact whatsoever on the sport of wrestling.  Why are viewership numbers for flowrestling events secret?  Just post the number of viewers for PD3 vs the grappler compared to whatever the marquee matchup was for last year's WNO event.  I'll be happy to admit that this was a huge gain for the sport if the numbers support your claim.  

sorry that i can't reveal the actual numbers but more people watch the PD3 Nicky Rod match than any other WNO match from ever prior event. it was a big win for everyone! except people who didn't want the match to be popular so they wouldn't have to admit you were wrong to someone they've never met before on an internet forum. but to everyone else, it was a win!

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5 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

But it was a dummy who formerly wrestled and had a huge size advantage. I’ve done both too and it was still interesting. I don’t know about a big win for the sport etc., but who cares? It was a fun match that probably had some grappling fans watching thrown into an outstanding night of HS wrestling. WNO has become my favorite HS event of the year and it wouldn’t even exist were it not for Flo. Poster Jon nails this a few posts above when he credits Flo for experimenting. 

Then let's do like the Koreans did and split periods based on rules.  First period, freestyle.  2nd period no gi bjj.  Both styles can be represented fairly and overall viewership and interest would be maxed. 

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6 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

. I don’t know about a big win for the sport etc., but who cares? It was a fun match that probably had some grappling fans watching thrown into an outstanding night of HS wrestling. WNO has become my favorite HS event of the year and it wouldn’t even exist were it not for Flo. Poster Jon nails this a few posts above when he credits Flo for experimenting. 

Nailed it perfectly nerd, good gravy wrestling fans complain about anything.  It was a fun exhibition match in an extensive and enjoyable card, something a little different in a laid back event.  Flo tried to get Spencer Lee and Iowa compliance shut it down for some reason.  Downey and Rodriguez took this on a week's notice and got a little discussion going in non-wrestling circles.   Probably not a ton, but who cares? 

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2 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

sorry that i can't reveal the actual numbers but more people watch the PD3 Nicky Rod match than any other WNO match from ever prior event. it was a big win for everyone! except people who didn't want the match to be popular so they wouldn't have to admit you were wrong to someone they've never met before on an internet forum. but to everyone else, it was a win!

I don’t mind being wrong at all. I just pointed out that a bjj grappler vs wrestler in a wrestling match probably doesn’t matter for the sport of wrestling given how small a fanbase grappling has. That statement triggered you for some reason, and you seem super intent on proving me wrong without providing the numbers for how many ppl watched it live. 

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19 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

That statement triggered you for some reason, and you seem super intent on proving me wrong without providing the numbers for how many ppl watched it live. 

Yup.

Edited by jon

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25 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

I don’t mind being wrong at all. I just pointed out that a bjj grappler vs wrestler in a wrestling match probably doesn’t matter for the sport of wrestling given how small a fanbase grappling has. That statement triggered you for some reason, and you seem super intent on proving me wrong without providing the numbers for how many ppl watched it live. 

glad you're being a good sport about it, but your ignorance of the grappling community is blatant.

like i said, can't provide viewership numbers but like I also said, there were more people watching that match live than any other WNO match from previous years. we can quibble about exactly how big of a success having that match at the event is, and we can argue about how much of a positive impact it had, but if you think it didn't have a positive impact and that it was not good for the sport, well, you'd be wrong. 

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The sour grapes mentality towards flo trying something new is exactly why people have a hard time becoming wrestling fans if they didn’t compete as wrestlers. Disparaging grappling for not having lots of fans while being a fan of a niche sport like wrestling is laughably hypocritical. Like it or not, hundreds of THOUSANDS of adults pay good money to train in grappling gyms across the United States-the same cannot be said for wrestling. Just because you yourself are unaware of of crossover between the fan bases for the two sports does not mean it does not exist. As a wrestler who has joined the BJJ community I can tell you that most grapplers have the upmost respect for wrestlers, and often express the wish that they had been exposed to wrestling in their youth. To see the reverse mentality from wrestling fans makes me sad-we should be applauding flo for doing something that could bring new sets of enthusiastic eyes to wrestling. As fans we often talk about doing whatever it takes to grow the sport, then sabotage any possibility of this happening by being hostile to outsiders who may be curious. Have an open mind 

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No sour grapes here towards Flo trying something new. WNO event has received warm reception in this thread... Jaroslav brings bizarre snark + ad hominem responses + full-on noise ("a big win for everyone!"), which may well elicit sour grapes and which absolutely reflects poorly on Flo. It's almost as if he thinks readers will be content with C+A -- coverage + access lol -- such that nothing else matters.

Edited by jon

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Agree it’s definitely a good step to help grow the sport. It’s not a big event so yeah it probably didn’t do much in reality but I applaud Flo for a good idea and it certainly didn’t hurt. I think it earns respect for the sport when non-wrestling fans see someone from their sport get their butt kicked by a wrestler. Of course all of us that follow wrestling knew it was coming but I bet a lot of grappling fans that tuned in have a lot of respect for Downey and the sport of wrestling now. I had to laugh when Flo promote Nick Rodriguez high school record like that meant he had a chance against a world team member lol, but it was a good idea none the less.

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There’s people who just simply don’t like (enter organization/company here), for whatever reason, and have the personality type that no matter what they do they’re going to disagree with and throw shade at it. They think they are making good points and bringing, in this case Flo, down. What they don’t realize is that it’s more of a reflection on them than who they are talking about. I’m not talking about anyone in particular, just that personality type in general. 

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Disagree with the 'personality type' assertion. Numerous persons speak out against Flo. Commonality here is not one particular personality type but rather a yearning to see improvement. Flo detractors, collectively, identify numerous targets for improvement. Flo proponents, however, talk about the same two things (coverage + access) plus one nonsense idea ("without Flo wrestling would have nothing"). Which of those camps more plausibly has a common set of personality features? If anything, personality punditry ought to focus on Jaroslav's grating approach, not to be disparaging but rather for the sake of improvement.

Trying to keep this thread on topic: WNO event has received warm reception. Perhaps there's sour grapes but that's not because it's a Flo event. The idea that Flo might use wrestling to bolster BJJ, a lesser vertical, is intriguing.

Edited by jon

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On 10/6/2019 at 12:43 AM, Billyhoyle said:

So because a couple of former wrestlers make money in MMA (while also likely receiving significant brain damage), grappling is good for college/international wrestling?  I'm sorry, but I don't follow this logic.  

It's fine. You don't need to apologize, it's OK if you don't follow. I'll clarify.

My post:
"ALL combat sports contribute to wrestling because, at the end of the day, when it's all said and done, wrestlers win in MMA. "

  • When wrestlers perform at the highest level and win in MMA, the fans make the connection. Wrestling is a great basis for an MMA future.
  • Other combat sports, where combatants don't necessarily transition as successfully into MMA contribute as examples why wrestling may provide a better path to MMA success.
  • Young folks, when faced with the choice of combat sports - they see that wrestling is a proven choice and tend to choose that path.
  • End result = More young folks choose wrestling = wrestling grows.

I believe I've explained it a bit more this time, but if anyone has any trouble following the logic - feel free to either PM me or reply to this post. (I'd prefer the former, but either is OK.)

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