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WNO Supermatch: PD3 vs Nicky Rodriguez ?

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I can't believe the amount of sour grapes in this thread.  I feel like if the government gave all former wrestlers $10,000 everyone on this forum would find some way to complain about it.  Flo did something where the reception should range from "I don't really care about this" to "Wow!  This is really cool!" and people are choosing to spend their time and energy being negative and bashing a sport they clearly don't know anything about.

 

Kudos to flo for trying something different.  I'm glad to hear that it paid off in terms of viewership!

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12 hours ago, jon said:

Disagree with the 'personality type' assertion. Numerous persons speak out against Flo. Commonality here is not one particular personality type but rather a yearning to see improvement. Flo detractors, collectively, identify numerous targets for improvement. Flo proponents, however, talk about the same two things (coverage + access) plus one nonsense idea ("without Flo wrestling would have nothing"). Which of those camps more plausibly has a common set of personality features? If anything, personality punditry ought to focus on Jaroslav's grating approach, not to be disparaging but rather for the sake of improvement.

Trying to keep this thread on topic: WNO event has received warm reception. Perhaps there's sour grapes but that's not because it's a Flo event. The idea that Flo might use wrestling to bolster BJJ, a lesser vertical, is intriguing.

Certainly not every one who has a criticism or a few falls into what I’m saying, but it’s pretty hard to deny that people like that exist. And it exists on this board, whether it’s Flo or Penn State or Iowa or Rob Koll or..... 

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On 10/6/2019 at 1:43 AM, Billyhoyle said:

So because a couple of former wrestlers make money in MMA (while also likely receiving significant brain damage), grappling is good for college/international wrestling?  I'm sorry, but I don't follow this logic.  

This shows that you are either debating a topic you know nothing about, or purposely being disingenuous to try to minimize a point that counters your opinion because your incapable of seeing another point of view. . There are far, far, far more than a couple wrestlers successful and making money in MMA. Just look at the list of current top five in each division of the UFC. You will recongnize a whole lot of names being that you are in the wrestling community. 

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The event was started to generate early season interest in h.s. wrestling. The name of the event, Who's #1, tells us this is so. On Saturday night we had about a dozen h.s. matches featuring the best h.s. wrestlers in the entire country and one recently emigrated from Cuba. But mostly what the board is talking about is an exhibition match between probably our 3rd best guy at 86 Kg vs. a non wrestler. Wow.

 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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WNO is a great event, I just wish it would have existed much sooner.  With the all-star classic going by the wayside, it's cool that this event has taken off in the way that it has. 

To be able to get this many of the top guys in the country to show up to a preseason exhibition event--and not just show up, but care and take it seriously--is very impressive.  Job well done. 

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16 hours ago, Underhook said:

The sour grapes mentality towards flo trying something new is exactly why people have a hard time becoming wrestling fans if they didn’t compete as wrestlers. Disparaging grappling for not having lots of fans while being a fan of a niche sport like wrestling is laughably hypocritical. Like it or not, hundreds of THOUSANDS of adults pay good money to train in grappling gyms across the United States-the same cannot be said for wrestling. Just because you yourself are unaware of of crossover between the fan bases for the two sports does not mean it does not exist. As a wrestler who has joined the BJJ community I can tell you that most grapplers have the upmost respect for wrestlers, and often express the wish that they had been exposed to wrestling in their youth. To see the reverse mentality from wrestling fans makes me sad-we should be applauding flo for doing something that could bring new sets of enthusiastic eyes to wrestling. As fans we often talk about doing whatever it takes to grow the sport, then sabotage any possibility of this happening by being hostile to outsiders who may be curious. Have an open mind 

Great post and agree for the most part, however honest question, do many of the people that train BJJ actually watch high-level competitions of it? 

Actually doing a quick search about ADCC, it does seem like a lot of people watched that at least:  On reddit, there were several threads with a ton of comments (Day 1 - 1.5K, Day 2 - 2.2K, plus another 200+ post thread about the results).   I'm not a reddit guy so not too familiar with it but doing a quick search, I don't see any thread about Worlds with more than 50 posts.  The NCAA Finals thread was up there but was still less than 900 posts.

 

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20 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

glad you're being a good sport about it, but your ignorance of the grappling community is blatant.

like i said, can't provide viewership numbers but like I also said, there were more people watching that match live than any other WNO match from previous years. we can quibble about exactly how big of a success having that match at the event is, and we can argue about how much of a positive impact it had, but if you think it didn't have a positive impact and that it was not good for the sport, well, you'd be wrong. 

Why do you assume that because a lot of people watched it that it is "good for the sport?"  I don't follow that logic.  I wound't argue that a lot of people watching who's number 1 makes the event a success, but good for the sport as a whole surely there is nothing to back that up.  I mean if we can argue about how much of a positive impact it had then it probably didn't have a measurable impact which brings that whole good the sport assumption into question.

Was McGregor-Mayweather good for the sport of boxing?  A lot of people watched it, but that is beside the point. Did it have any measurable lasting impact on the popularity/viewership of boxing between two non-retired professional boxers?  

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Jaroslav's been involved in claims that don't quite withstand scrutiny -- e.g., Cornell being Lightweight U. WNO a great event. Kudos to Flo for doing it all. Sad to see Jaroslav's grating approach steal attention from WNO.

Edited by jon

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Nick Rodiguez being one of the top two 99kg+ grapplers in the world is kind of fake news.  He won three straight matches 0-0 on referees decisions to make that final.  Both semifinals were 0-0 referees decisions.  The third place match didn't happen and was a forfeit - those guys are probably teammates or something stupid like that.  Rodriguez lost the final 0-3.  He scored the exact same number of offensive points in the entire ADCC tournament as he did against Downey 0.

Wrestlers having success at ADCC is not something new.  Ben Askren, Jerry Rinaldi, Mark Kerr, Jeff Monson, Tito Ortiz, Jake Shields, and AJ Agazarm all wrestled in college and found some success at ADCC.  Rustam Chsiev has also medaled there and wrestled in the Schultz.  Grapplers know that wrestling can be a big asset in the competition.  Interest in crossover matches won't be sustained if they continue to be not in any way competitive affairs. 

 

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4 hours ago, lost said:

I can't believe the amount of sour grapes in this thread.  I feel like if the government gave all former wrestlers $10,000 everyone on this forum would find some way to complain about it.  Flo did something where the reception should range from "I don't really care about this" to "Wow!  This is really cool!" and people are choosing to spend their time and energy being negative and bashing a sport they clearly don't know anything about.

 

Kudos to flo for trying something different.  I'm glad to hear that it paid off in terms of viewership!

I'd complain about that because I am a taxpayer and have zero desire for more wasteful spending.  

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Great post and agree for the most part, however honest question, do many of the people that train BJJ actually watch high-level competitions of it? 

Actually doing a quick search about ADCC, it does seem like a lot of people watched that at least:  On reddit, there were several threads with a ton of comments (Day 1 - 1.5K, Day 2 - 2.2K, plus another 200+ post thread about the results).   I'm not a reddit guy so not too familiar with it but doing a quick search, I don't see any thread about Worlds with more than 50 posts.  The NCAA Finals thread was up there but was still less than 900 posts.

 

A lot of the adults (myself included as a crossover from wrestling and to BJJ) watch the events.  We have viewing parties at my school.  We watch for the same reason kids and teens watch:. A.) See high level technique in action, B.). Learn something new,. C.) Follow guys that have some type of connection to you (same school, rolled with briefly, etc).  Note that the viewing party for the ADCC at my one school location had about 50 folks show up, so their one livestream was getting 50 pairs of eyeballs.  Is it the NFL... Nope.  Is it as big as some wrestling events?  Nope.  Is it still cool AF?  Yup.

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11 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Nick Rodiguez being one of the top two 99kg+ grapplers in the world is kind of fake news.  He won three straight matches 0-0 on referees decisions to make that final.  Both semifinals were 0-0 referees decisions.  The third place match didn't happen and was a forfeit - those guys are probably teammates or something stupid like that.  Rodriguez lost the final 0-3.  He scored the exact same number of offensive points in the entire ADCC tournament as he did against Downey 0.

Wrestlers having success at ADCC is not something new.  Ben Askren, Jerry Rinaldi, Mark Kerr, Jeff Monson, Tito Ortiz, Jake Shields, and AJ Agazarm all wrestled in college and found some success at ADCC.  Rustam Chsiev has also medaled there and wrestled in the Schultz.  Grapplers know that wrestling can be a big asset in the competition.  Interest in crossover matches won't be sustained if they continue to be not in any way competitive affairs. 

 

This point is valid.  The PD3/Nicky Rod match needed to split periods.  One period with the ruleset they agreed on, and the other with a ruleset that favored nickyrod.  

I'm a middle aged man training BJJ and attend a high profile BJJ school in CO.  I haven't been on the mat in 20 years, retiring in my early 20's.  I just began BJJ this year.  After 9 months, I have yet to be taken down by anyone that I've rolled with.  My extremely dated wrestling background is devastating for these guys, if the rules were kept to a takedown competition.  Once BJJ rules ( i.e. Pulling guard, passing guard, etc) starts, all of my advantages begin to equilibrate.  

My point is... This match wasn't really "fair" to Nicky Rod, nor fair to the fans.  It could have been very educational for wrestling fans to see the difference in the sister disciplines.

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28 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

This point is valid.  The PD3/Nicky Rod match needed to split periods.  One period with the ruleset they agreed on, and the other with a ruleset that favored nickyrod.  

I'm a middle aged man training BJJ and attend a high profile BJJ school in CO.  I haven't been on the mat in 20 years, retiring in my early 20's.  I just began BJJ this year.  After 9 months, I have yet to be taken down by anyone that I've rolled with.  My extremely dated wrestling background is devastating for these guys, if the rules were kept to a takedown competition.  Once BJJ rules ( i.e. Pulling guard, passing guard, etc) starts, all of my advantages begin to equilibrate.  

My point is... This match wasn't really "fair" to Nicky Rod, nor fair to the fans.  It could have been very educational for wrestling fans to see the difference in the sister disciplines.

I would be most interested in a match in one rule set or the other.  If you get into major modification then it is less interesting.  People were saying if McGregor and Maywether do it again they should do boxing with leg kicks.  Conor has stated he only wants to fight him in boxing or MMA no mixed rule sets.  I agree with him.  What does it matter who is better in boxing with leg kicks since no one actually does that?  It was compelling because people wanted to see how one of the best strikers in MMA stacked up against one of the best boxers.  I might watch another one of these if a UFC champion fights another boxer in a boxing match, but if they continue to be non-competitive then the chance a UFC champion attempting it goes down as does the public interest.  The same for a current boxing champion taking an MMA fight against a UFC fighter. 

What's cool about wrestlers at ADCC is that some have, with a year or two of BJJ training, performed quite well.  If they went out there and all got rolled up in short order it wouldn't be interesting.  I think that's more likely to happen when a world champ in submission grappling goes up against an world class wrestler in wrestling than when a world champ wrestler goes up against a world class grappler under ADCC rules.  An ADCC rules match between Rodriguez and Downey is more compelling to me than a freestyle bout.  

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43 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

I would be most interested in a match in one rule set or the other.  If you get into major modification then it is less interesting.  People were saying if McGregor and Maywether do it again they should do boxing with leg kicks.  Conor has stated he only wants to fight him in boxing or MMA no mixed rule sets.  I agree with him.  What does it matter who is better in boxing with leg kicks since no one actually does that?  It was compelling because people wanted to see how one of the best strikers in MMA stacked up against one of the best boxers.  I might watch another one of these if a UFC champion fights another boxer in a boxing match, but if they continue to be non-competitive then the chance a UFC champion attempting it goes down as does the public interest.  The same for a current boxing champion taking an MMA fight against a UFC fighter. 

What's cool about wrestlers at ADCC is that some have, with a year or two of BJJ training, performed quite well.  If they went out there and all got rolled up in short order it wouldn't be interesting.  I think that's more likely to happen when a world champ in submission grappling goes up against an world class wrestler in wrestling than when a world champ wrestler goes up against a world class grappler under ADCC rules.  An ADCC rules match between Rodriguez and Downey is more compelling to me than a freestyle bout.  

Just like Downey ran through Nicky Rod with expected ease, I would expect that Nicky Rod would return the favor in the BJJ rules match.  I'm unsure why people would feel otherwise, unless Downey also has had legit BJJ training of his own.

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21 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Just like Downey ran through Nicky Rod with expected ease, I would expect that Nicky Rod would return the favor in the BJJ rules match.  I'm unsure why people would feel otherwise, unless Downey also has had legit BJJ training of his own.

Nick Rodriguez only has about two years of dedicated submission grappling training.  He isn't a prodigy like BJ Penn who developed high level BJJ and earned his black belt in two years.  He is a blue belt and he wins by maximizing his advantage in wrestling ability relative to his opponents.    Usually he gets the takedown and if he gets a submission it's usually a rear naked choke after getting the back following the aforementioned take down.  I am sure Downey would be in trouble if Rodriguez put him on his back, but how would that happen?  It's unlikely he would be able to take Downey down so he would have to reverse him or submit him off his back which are not two things for which he is known.  If they did this is on a weeks notice with no training and no game plan and I wouldn't expect Downey to pull it off, but give him a month of dedicated training and he would be a live underdog.  Give him 6 months and I'd probably pick him straight up, but Downey is a bit of a wild card even when it comes to wrestling so who know?

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2 hours ago, Fishbane said:

Why do you assume that because a lot of people watched it that it is "good for the sport?"  I don't follow that logic.  I wound't argue that a lot of people watching who's number 1 makes the event a success, but good for the sport as a whole surely there is nothing to back that up.  I mean if we can argue about how much of a positive impact it had then it probably didn't have a measurable impact which brings that whole good the sport assumption into question.

Was McGregor-Mayweather good for the sport of boxing?  A lot of people watched it, but that is beside the point. Did it have any measurable lasting impact on the popularity/viewership of boxing between two non-retired professional boxers?  

I think most people would measure the popularity of a sport by how many people watch it. The more people watch wrestling, the more popular it becomes. I consider those good things. So grappling fans watching WNO I consider a success for the sport. Just like how I would very much like it if ESPN's ratings for the NCAA Championship went up year after year.

finding available metrics to prove lasting impacts of events that just happened are going to be difficult to come by. I think if you were to somehow calculate the number of people who were paying attention to and following wrestling, whether online or offline, I think you'd see that number going up. but again I don't know how to accurately do that. 

I guess I can't prove that having grappling and ADCC fans watch Who's #1 in substantial numbers (apologies again that I can't reveal specifics) is good for the sport, but I will firmly believe it to be the case until I have reason not too.

I don't know much about the boxing community so couldn't say whether the McGregor-Mayweather fight was good for boxing but my guess is it on balance it did more good than harm. 

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9 hours ago, lost said:

I can't believe the amount of sour grapes in this thread.  I feel like if the government gave all former wrestlers $10,000 everyone on this forum would find some way to complain about it.  Flo did something where the reception should range from "I don't really care about this" to "Wow!  This is really cool!" and people are choosing to spend their time and energy being negative and bashing a sport they clearly don't know anything about.

 

Kudos to flo for trying something different.  I'm glad to hear that it paid off in terms of viewership!

What is worse: posting an opinion on a message board or complaining about people posting their opinions on a message board? If you don’t like what’s posted, feel free to disagree. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

Nick Rodriguez only has about two years of dedicated submission grappling training.  He isn't a prodigy like BJ Penn who developed high level BJJ and earned his black belt in two years.  He is a blue belt and he wins by maximizing his advantage in wrestling ability relative to his opponents.    Usually he gets the takedown and if he gets a submission it's usually a rear naked choke after getting the back following the aforementioned take down.  I am sure Downey would be in trouble if Rodriguez put him on his back, but how would that happen?  It's unlikely he would be able to take Downey down so he would have to reverse him or submit him off his back which are not two things for which he is known.  If they did this is on a weeks notice with no training and no game plan and I wouldn't expect Downey to pull it off, but give him a month of dedicated training and he would be a live underdog.  Give him 6 months and I'd probably pick him straight up, but Downey is a bit of a wild card even when it comes to wrestling so who know?

I’ve never seen this guy “grapple” but I find it hard to believe that he wins based on his wrestling ability considering it seems he wasn’t much more than an above average high school wrestler.  

Sure wrestling helps, but you need more than that.  Otherwise the elite wrestlers would be dominating UFC, etc.  Instead it seems like it’s a lot of guys that were pretty good/very good, but not necessarily elite at wrestling but are better at whatever the heck else you need to be successful in MMA (Usman, Covington, etc.  Of course you do have Cejudo representing elite wrestlers).   

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

I’ve never seen this guy “grapple” but I find it hard to believe that he wins based on his wrestling ability considering it seems he wasn’t much more than an above average high school wrestler.  

Sure wrestling helps, but you need more than that.  Otherwise the elite wrestlers would be dominating UFC, etc.  Instead it seems like it’s a lot of guys that were pretty good/very good, but not necessarily elite at wrestling but are better at whatever the heck else you need to be successful in MMA (Usman, Covington, etc.  Of course you do have Cejudo representing elite wrestlers).   

He was a lot more than above average high school wrestler.  He was  111-17 in high school and 34-4 as a freshman at a D3 university.  He was 4th at the regional and did not qualify for nationals.  He was not elite like Downey or Cejudo.  He's not grappling elite wrestlers so he has a wrestling advantage. 

I am not saying Downey would do better at ADCCs than Rodriguez.  I am saying that Rodriguez has learned to maximize his wrestling advantage to make use of the BJJ he knows.  Downey would be a problematic matchup for him because that advantage would be neutralized and he would have to win a different way.  At ADCC Rodriguez's big win was a 0-0 referee's decision against Cyborg.  Cyborg fought Hudson Taylor in the first round and won 2-0.  Hudson Taylor and Rodriguez fought at the ADCC trials and Taylor won 5-0.  Taylor scored three points for passing the guard and 2 points for mount.  Their match in many ways looked like a wrestling match. It's available on a chinese video hosting site here - https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzkwODMxMTAzMg

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4 hours ago, Fishbane said:

Nick Rodriguez only has about two years of dedicated submission grappling training.  He isn't a prodigy like BJ Penn who developed high level BJJ and earned his black belt in two years.  He is a blue belt and he wins by maximizing his advantage in wrestling ability relative to his opponents.    Usually he gets the takedown and if he gets a submission it's usually a rear naked choke after getting the back following the aforementioned take down.  I am sure Downey would be in trouble if Rodriguez put him on his back, but how would that happen?  It's unlikely he would be able to take Downey down so he would have to reverse him or submit him off his back which are not two things for which he is known.  If they did this is on a weeks notice with no training and no game plan and I wouldn't expect Downey to pull it off, but give him a month of dedicated training and he would be a live underdog.  Give him 6 months and I'd probably pick him straight up, but Downey is a bit of a wild card even when it comes to wrestling so who know?

Umm... Ok... I suppose.

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On 10/6/2019 at 2:19 PM, Jaroslav Hasek said:

glad you're being a good sport about it, but your ignorance of the grappling community is blatant.

like i said, can't provide viewership numbers but like I also said, there were more people watching that match live than any other WNO match from previous years. we can quibble about exactly how big of a success having that match at the event is, and we can argue about how much of a positive impact it had, but if you think it didn't have a positive impact and that it was not good for the sport, well, you'd be wrong. 

Come on Spey give us a hint. Was it more than 5,000?

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4 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

What is worse: posting an opinion on a message board or complaining about people posting their opinions on a message board? If you don’t like what’s posted, feel free to disagree. 

So basically, you’re allowed to gripe and complain (inaccurately even), but nobody is allowed to share their opinion on your complaints, while also having something positive to say. 

Your post says quite a bit. 

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27 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So basically, you’re allowed to gripe and complain (inaccurately even), but nobody is allowed to share their opinion on your complaints, while also having something positive to say. 

Your post says quite a bit. 

Feel free to disagree with my opinion on anything I post, but don't complain about the fact that I have one.  Can't you distinguish between somebody like Haslov disagreeing with what I am saying and "lost" complaining about negativity of those who may not have an opinion that matches his. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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@Billyhoyle, you can have whatever opinion about WNO and the matches you like, I was 'disagreeing' with your wildly inaccurate assumptions about the grappling community. 

Like most wrestling fans, I personally haven't developing an affinity for watching jiu-jitsu yet, however I've also gotten to know the community through my colleagues at FloGrappling and it is very large and passionate and there is a lot of potential in growing wrestling's fan base by tapping into the BJJ fanbase.

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23 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

@Billyhoyle, you can have whatever opinion about WNO and the matches you like, I was 'disagreeing' with your wildly inaccurate assumptions about the grappling community. 

Like most wrestling fans, I personally haven't developing an affinity for watching jiu-jitsu yet, however I've also gotten to know the community through my colleagues at FloGrappling and it is very large and passionate and there is a lot of potential in growing wrestling's fan base by tapping into the BJJ fanbase.

Yes, I'm saying I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. Without the numbers I don't think we can say which of us is right, but still you are entitled to your opinion just like I am mine. I do have a problem with people complaining about me/others like me posting my opinion (this was not you).  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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