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WNO Supermatch: PD3 vs Nicky Rodriguez ?

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11 hours ago, Fishbane said:

He was a lot more than above average high school wrestler.  He was  111-17 in high school and 34-4 as a freshman at a D3 university.  He was 4th at the regional and did not qualify for nationals.  He was not elite like Downey or Cejudo.  He's not grappling elite wrestlers so he has a wrestling advantage. 

I am not saying Downey would do better at ADCCs than Rodriguez.  I am saying that Rodriguez has learned to maximize his wrestling advantage to make use of the BJJ he knows.  Downey would be a problematic matchup for him because that advantage would be neutralized and he would have to win a different way.  At ADCC Rodriguez's big win was a 0-0 referee's decision against Cyborg.  Cyborg fought Hudson Taylor in the first round and won 2-0.  Hudson Taylor and Rodriguez fought at the ADCC trials and Taylor won 5-0.  Taylor scored three points for passing the guard and 2 points for mount.  Their match in many ways looked like a wrestling match. It's available on a chinese video hosting site here - https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzkwODMxMTAzMg

He never placed in NJ states, and didn’t qualify for D3 nationals the 1 year he wrestled in college.  Don’t get me wrong, his stats were better than mine and yes he was “pretty good,” but there are a ton of guys likely better at him in wrestling.  I’m just saying I’d guess you’re putting a little too much emphasis on his wrestling “advantage,” and I’d have to assume he was able to quickly develop some other skills that helped him be so successful in BJJ.

Is there any money to be made in BJJ?   I guess my point is if it was that easy for wrestlers to transition, wouldn’t BJJ just be dominated by former elite wrestlers?

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8 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Feel free to disagree with my opinion on anything I post, but don't complain about the fact that I have one.  Can't you distinguish between somebody like Haslov disagreeing with what I am saying and "lost" complaining about negativity of those who may not have an opinion that matches his. 

Disagreements, criticism, debate is all a good thing. It’s what built this country. My point to you was the fact that you purposely stated “information” that was not at all accurate to try to minimize the point of view opposite of yours in hopes of making your stance stronger. Debate is good, but when you try to downplay what the reality is on the other side of the argument, yes you are inviting those types of responses. To answer your question of which is worse....well when you can’t even take the other side of the equation at face value in expressing your opinion, yes that is “worse” than people calling you out on it. 

Just my opinion...

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11 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Yes, I'm saying I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. Without the numbers I don't think we can say which of us is right, but still you are entitled to your opinion just like I am mine. I do have a problem with people complaining about me/others like me posting my opinion (this was not you).  

there are numbers to discredit your 'opinion' that grappling is less relevant that taekwondo and your other statements that attempt to diminish the size and important of the grappling community. just look at the social media accounts that cover bjj, they are as big or bigger than the largest wrestling accounts. they get great engagement too. flograppling vs flowrestling for instance. 

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4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

He never placed in NJ states, and didn’t qualify for D3 nationals the 1 year he wrestled in college.  Don’t get me wrong, his stats were better than mine and yes he was “pretty good,” but there are a ton of guys likely better at him in wrestling.  I’m just saying I’d guess you’re putting a little too much emphasis on his wrestling “advantage,” and I’d have to assume he was able to quickly develop some other skills that helped him be so successful in BJJ.

Is there any money to be made in BJJ?   I guess my point is if it was that easy for wrestlers to transition, wouldn’t BJJ just be dominated by former elite wrestlers?

I agree, but those skills complement what he already had.  What he already had will work on most BJJ black belts, but not a high level wrestler.  If Downey had a month to prepare I am not saying would do better at ADCC than Rodriguez because he doesn't have all the other stuff but he would stand a decent shot at beating Rodriguez in a grappling match with some prep and a good game plan.

I think many AA wrestlers would be fairly successful at no gi grappling.  There isn't really money in BJJ relative to MMA, but the top competitors can make a living doing it.  That tournament Rodriguez placed second in takes place every other year and has the biggest prize money.  It also has somewhat more favorable rules for wrestlers than other bjj, no-gi, and submission wrestling competitions. Winning your division pays $10,000 and winning the absolute division (any weight can enter) pays $40,000.  Rodriguez got $5,000 for placing second. The IBJJF pays $10k for winning their world championships in the gi.  There are other promotions like fight2win and such that have superfights that pay a couple thousand.  Money can be made by sponsors and teaching.  Most schools charge $100+/month for tuition.  People put out technique videos and stuff to earn more.  I'd be surprised is Rodriguez makes most of his annual income from grappling.

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6 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

there are numbers to discredit your 'opinion' that grappling is less relevant that taekwondo and your other statements that attempt to diminish the size and important of the grappling community. just look at the social media accounts that cover bjj, they are as big or bigger than the largest wrestling accounts. they get great engagement too. flograppling vs flowrestling for instance. 

I’m sorry, but I’d like some actual viewership numbers. You continue to refuse to post them, but claim I am wrong with 0 evidence. I see a stadium sold out for NCAA wrestling and decent television ratings for that event. I see zero numbers that you’ve posted for grappling. I’m very willing to admit I’m wrong if you would just post the numbers for the WNO event that you claimed was big for the sport of wrestling (and the comparative numbers for the year before). 

Millions of people participate in taekwondo  and it’s a sport that the mainstream has actually heard of. The only people I know who have heard of grappling are ex wrestlers who do it for exercise. That is my opinion-and if you have viewership numbers that discredit my opinion, I’m receptive to changing it. 

 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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The Rudis guys panned the match on their podcast.  The criticism was that pretty much because it wasn't competitive and everyone knew that would be the case.  They said they should have given Rodriguez a way to win by submission.  I'd agree that it would make the match more competitive, but I don't think it would make it interesting.  I'm kind of against this kind of handicapping.  It's also kind of funny that Askren suggested it being he took a high profile wrestling match he didn't stand much chance at winning.  Maybe he can wrestle Burroughs again with rules where Burroughs isn't allowed to use any doubles and submissions are allowed in the second period.  

Edited by Fishbane

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2 hours ago, boconnell said:

I don't care about Downey.  

I don't know who Rodriguez is.

I don't care about grappling.

I think it's great they did the match.

I think anyone complaining about it is looking for their thing to complain about on the internet today.

This is basically what I was trying to say. I would expect this to be the reaction of the average fan

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48 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

I’m sorry, but I’d like some actual viewership numbers. You continue to refuse to post them, but claim I am wrong with 0 evidence. I see a stadium sold out for NCAA wrestling and decent television ratings for that event. I see zero numbers that you’ve posted for grappling. I’m very willing to admit I’m wrong if you would just post the numbers for the WNO event that you claimed was big for the sport of wrestling (and the comparative numbers for the year before). 

Millions of people participate in taekwondo  and it’s a sport that the mainstream has actually heard of. The only people I know who have heard of grappling are ex wrestlers who do it for exercise. That is my opinion-and if you have viewership numbers that discredit my opinion, I’m receptive to changing it. 

 

yes, that's right, I admit it, i continue to refuse to post Flo's streaming numbers here, not because I will get fired if I do, but because I am lying when I tell you that Who's #1 live viewership nearly doubled year-over-year from 2018 to 2019. that is what's going on. 

you are also a subject matter expert when it comes to the popularity of grappling. we should trust your expertise on the matter, since you've proven to be so knowledgable about the topic. 

apologies for all my past snark and rudeness. I consider the case closed, and look forward to more fun conversations about wrestling on this wrestling message board with my wrestling fan friends. 

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19 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

yes, that's right, I admit it, i continue to refuse to post Flo's streaming numbers here, not because I will get fired if I do, but because I am lying when I tell you that Who's #1 live viewership nearly doubled year-over-year from 2018 to 2019. that is what's going on. 

you are also a subject matter expert when it comes to the popularity of grappling. we should trust your expertise on the matter, since you've proven to be so knowledgable about the topic. 

apologies for all my past snark and rudeness. I consider the case closed, and look forward to more fun conversations about wrestling on this wrestling message board with my wrestling fan friends. 


cam you give us a roundabout or great than?

going from 3,000 to 6,000 is far more impressive than going from 400 to 800. 

theres a reason that your management threatens to fire you if you release statistics - and it ain’t because they rival espn+

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Oh my goodness. Yes he *can* give some basic data but of course he won't. Jaroslav makes the claim and yet somehow the burden of proof shifts to everyone else. Jaroslav talks big--BIG WIN!!!--but he doesn't back it up. I said it yesterday: This not the first time he's been involved in claims that don't withstand scrutiny.

The real bummer here: WNO a Flo creation. Flo owes fans nothing when it comes to WNO metrics. Flo wants to withhold those data and in my opinion that's just fine. But then Jaroslav mars a good thing--he undermines the aftermath of a great event--when he starts talkin'. Big claims demand strong evidence. This thread better off before all the BIG WIN!!! nonsense.

Amateurish. Slippery.

Edited by jon

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2 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

yes, that's right, I admit it, i continue to refuse to post Flo's streaming numbers here, not because I will get fired if I do, but because I am lying when I tell you that Who's #1 live viewership nearly doubled year-over-year from 2018 to 2019. that is what's going on. 

you are also a subject matter expert when it comes to the popularity of grappling. we should trust your expertise on the matter, since you've proven to be so knowledgable about the topic. 

apologies for all my past snark and rudeness. I consider the case closed, and look forward to more fun conversations about wrestling on this wrestling message board with my wrestling fan friends. 

I’m not an expert. I have an opinion, and that opinion will change if presented with numbers. If you can’t post these for a flo event, then maybe attendance numbers for the largest domestic grappling event of the year (I don’t know what event this is) and how it compares to NCAAs. Or how many people in the country participate in submission grappling and how that compares to taekwondo or wrestling. 

I’m a subscriber to flo, so I give you guys money and like the content I get. I’m simply expressing my opinion that I think your wrestling coverage is bigger for wrestling than this type of crossover event. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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3 hours ago, Witherman said:


cam you give us a roundabout or great than?

going from 3,000 to 6,000 is far more impressive than going from 400 to 800. 

theres a reason that your management threatens to fire you if you release statistics - and it ain’t because they rival espn+

sorry, can't divulge numbers. if I were in your shoes though I'd be just as curious. 

as far as popularity of grappling and wrestling, I believe a good proxy is social media, with Instagram being the best indicator for the youngest and most important demographic. FloWrestling has 413K followers. FloGrappling has 473K followers. both IG accounts have very high engagement levels. 

Who's #1 was simulcasted on FloWrestling & FloGrappling. A not insignificant number of people signed up for a FloGrappling subscription just to watch WNO, which occurred after FloGrappling streamed the biggest event in the website's history, ADCC. A not insignificant number of people watched WNO live on FloGrappling. It was a good day for both sites, and both sports. J'den Cox, Bo Nickal and Jason Nolf have been posting about grappling and the biggest stars of grappling have been posting about wrestling. all good imo!

Wish I could provide more details. Maybe one day!

Now I'm happy to put this grappling business to bed and am ready to focus on Super 32 and the start of the NCAA season!

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Lol! First "BIG WIN!!!" and now "happy to put this grappling business to bed".

Summary for latecomers: (a) Jaroslav makes big claim. (b) When asked for data Jaroslav gives inscrutable response. (c) When pressed further Jaroslav gets defensive. (d) When pressed further Jaroslav begs off.

Quack quack quack.

Edited by jon

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A lot of empty seats in this highlight for one of the "largest jiu-jitsu events of all time."  

 

I get that this sport has some fans, but I doubt it's enough that a crossover event with a random grappler vs Downey matters at all for the sport of wrestling.  I will, of course, change my mind if presented with numbers that indicate big-time viewership.  

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4 hours ago, jon said:

Lol! First "BIG WIN!!!" and now "happy to put this grappling business to bed".

Summary for latecomers: (a) Jaroslav makes big claim. (b) When asked for data Jaroslav gives inscrutable response. (c) When pressed further Jaroslav gets defensive. (d) When pressed further Jaroslav begs off.

Quack quack quack.

A more accurate summary in the opinion of someone who has no horse on either side:

a) Jaroslav claims this was big for wrestling

b) poster asked for viewership numbers to back it up, maybe or maybe not knowing at this point he is contractually obligated to not give those numbers, meaning he has no choice. 

c) jaroslav explains he cannot release those numbers but offers some numbers from social media that lend to show increased interest in the event from outside the wrestling world 

d) posters see an opportunity to ride the fact that he is not allowed to (it is not his decision) release his numbers and hang on to it as some kind of proof he is lying 

e) same things are repeated over and over and the pile on begins, but due to his employment obligations holds firm to not being able to release them. More posters pile on the “if you can’t release the numbers it can’t be true” wagon. 

f) after more of the same ole same ole, Jaroslav suggests we stop beating a dead horse, for which he is again ridiculed and assumed he’s just trying to get out of the conversation because somehow he’s been proven wrong. 

All this over an exhibition match that was put together for fun and seemingly went off as something fun, those looking to drag it down and won’t let it go so they have something to gripe about not withstanding  

End of the day, I think we can all agree that last minute match was not bad for wrestling. How good or big it may be for the sport is not something that can be measured today, regardless of what the viewership numbers were.  He claims it was big for wrestling....my question would be why are people so hell bent on shutting that idea down. I understand asking for numbers, but KNOWING he cannot provide them, why keep banging the drum? Claiming it was big sport in now way puts a dark light on a good event. If anything all thIs negativity about it has. Its just really become stupid. 

Just my opinion.  I’m not going to get into a big debate about this post, but I’ll happily read any responses, with an open mind.  

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Not a big debate but yes one brief response: Jaroslav's history includes spin + half-truths + cherrypicking and, in my opinion, an extended summary of recent discussion ought to acknowledge these details because they--the spin + half-truths + cherrypicking--sure do raise doubt about """BIG WIN!!!""" claim absent hard numbers.

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11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

A more accurate summary in the opinion of someone who has no horse on either side:

a) Jaroslav claims this was big for wrestling

b) poster asked for viewership numbers to back it up, maybe or maybe not knowing at this point he is contractually obligated to not give those numbers, meaning he has no choice. 

c) jaroslav explains he cannot release those numbers but offers some numbers from social media that lend to show increased interest in the event from outside the wrestling world 

d) posters see an opportunity to ride the fact that he is not allowed to (it is not his decision) release his numbers and hang on to it as some kind of proof he is lying 

e) same things are repeated over and over and the pile on begins, but due to his employment obligations holds firm to not being able to release them. More posters pile on the “if you can’t release the numbers it can’t be true” wagon. 

f) after more of the same ole same ole, Jaroslav suggests we stop beating a dead horse, for which he is again ridiculed and assumed he’s just trying to get out of the conversation because somehow he’s been proven wrong. 

All this over an exhibition match that was put together for fun and seemingly went off as something fun, those looking to drag it down and won’t let it go so they have something to gripe about not withstanding  

End of the day, I think we can all agree that last minute match was not bad for wrestling. How good or big it may be for the sport is not something that can be measured today, regardless of what the viewership numbers were.  He claims it was big for wrestling....my question would be why are people so hell bent on shutting that idea down. I understand asking for numbers, but KNOWING he cannot provide them, why keep banging the drum? Claiming it was big sport in now way puts a dark light on a good event. If anything all thIs negativity about it has. Its just really become stupid. 

Just my opinion.  I’m not going to get into a big debate about this post, but I’ll happily read any responses, with an open mind.  

my point is not necessarily pointed to spey or accusing him of being a "liar"

i've ALWAYS been salty about the fact that they won't talk about numbers at all.  social media doesn't mean sh*t.  UFC has 16 million followers - not even 1% of those are now buying PPV.

the real problem I have is how the flo guys are all over saying "its huge! we're huge! we're changing sports media!" but when you ask them to back up any of their claims they are silent.

the only number i've EVER seen was an inc.com article from a few years ago where they claimed they were adding "30,000 users/month every month @ $150/month" but of course this was just a statement from Mark/Martin and no real data to support the claim.

don't get me wrong, I love flo and the product they produce.  I pay my membership and I use their product.  My issue simply lies in the fact that they don't belong anywhere in the same conversation with ESPN+ as it relates to direct-to-consume sports media.  oh, just FYI ESPN+ surpassed 2 million subscribers within 12 months of being launched.

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