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8 minutes ago, Ragu said:

Leaving out Gray is disrespectful unless we're talking strictly men's FS

Devil's advocate: How would she do at 74kg against the men?

No disrespect intended, but P4P means Pound-For-Pound, and not division dominance. She wouldn't beat a single man at 74 that was at the WTT last year.

If we are talking division dominance then she absolutely deserves to be in the talking. Likely for the #1-3 spot in that scenario.

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At this point, Mensah-Stock is prolly above Gray for women.  Random trivia while I hide out: Mensah is a fairly common surname amongst Akan speaking people of West Africa(primarily Ghana). It is also a name given to the third born male child of a family.  Therefore, one of my names is Mensah.

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3 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

1. J'den Cox

2. Kyle Dake

3. Snyder

4. JB

???

 

Do I have it right?  What about 5-10?

I’d be more confident in Taylor winning another gold at 86 over Burroughs getting one again at 74 or Snyder at 97...Taylor destroyed the world for almost 2 full years 

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3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Devil's advocate: How would she do at 74kg against the men?

No disrespect intended, but P4P means Pound-For-Pound, and not division dominance. She wouldn't beat a single man at 74 that was at the WTT last year.

If we are talking division dominance then she absolutely deserves to be in the talking. Likely for the #1-3 spot in that scenario.

flawed logic as it relates to P4P.

IF we are looking at M & W freestyle (which I DON'T believe was the intention) gray and stock absolutely belong in the conversation.

example:  do we really think that seth gross (#1) or spencer lee (#3) could beat zahid valencia (#2) or anthony cassar (#4) in the NCAA p4p rankings? of course not - the weight differential is too big.

whether or not someone could beat someone else has nothing to do with p4p rankings (unless of course you are talking in the same weight/division)

Edited by Witherman

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48 minutes ago, Witherman said:

flawed logic as it relates to P4P.

IF we are looking at M & W freestyle (which I DON'T believe was the intention) gray and stock absolutely belong in the conversation.

example:  do we really think that seth gross (#1) or spencer lee (#3) could beat zahid valencia (#2) or anthony cassar (#4) in the NCAA p4p rankings? of course not - the weight differential is too big.

whether or not someone could beat someone else has nothing to do with p4p rankings (unless of course you are talking in the same weight/division)

A lot of people see pound for pound as a way to determine who would win if weights were somehow made equal. By that definition, women would never beat men because of their physiological differences. The actual definition, however is a comparison of skill level regardless of weight class. Going by the actual definition, I think you are correct. 
 

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2 hours ago, Witherman said:

flawed logic as it relates to P4P.

IF we are looking at M & W freestyle (which I DON'T believe was the intention) gray and stock absolutely belong in the conversation.

example:  do we really think that seth gross (#1) or spencer lee (#3) could beat zahid valencia (#2) or anthony cassar (#4) in the NCAA p4p rankings? of course not - the weight differential is too big.

whether or not someone could beat someone else has nothing to do with p4p rankings (unless of course you are talking in the same weight/division)

What is flawed about using actual weight when comparing Grey to men of the same weight class, or the nearest? She wrestles 76kg.

Bluntly put P4P isn't what should be used. It isn't fair or appropriate, however if it is to be used then it needs to be used appropriately  with no filters.

If you want to use her dominance over her peers of the same sex, then use division dominance. You'll get little argument from me as to putting her above Snyder or even JB right now. She has proven her division dominance is as legit as anyone in the world can claim.

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1 hour ago, AZ_wrestling said:

Cox

Dake 

Taylor

JB

Snyder

Dieringer

 

The rest

Taylor out until he shows up and medals again. There is no reason for him to ranked above JB or Snyder since they each got 3rd in worlds 2019 while Taylor was not wrestling 

Edited by CaliWrestler

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The way I see P4P is that someone who could go up or down a weight class(or two) and immediately contend, while also separating from the 2nd tier of grapplers in their own weight class. Now that doesn't mean they're going to win all the matches at their home weight class, just that they have the tools necessary to succeed up/down as well. I will also leave the disclaimer that I'm only including those active on our senior level past year or so

57) Fix, Gillman

61) None apply.

65) Zain, Yianni, Oliver, GHulk

70) Green, Deakin

74) Burroughs, IMart, Nolf

79) Dake, Ringer, Zahid, Hall

86) Taylor

92) Cox, Nickal, Zillmer

97) Snyder, Gadson

125) Gwiz

So those who I believe would have the most success along these parameters:

1) Cox-I believe styles make matches and that he gives us the best chance at beating Sadulaev.

2) Dake-Same, however insert Sidakov. Non-Oil weight or not, 79kg was made for this man and you can expect him to make 

3) Snyder-I don't think he loses to Cox. I also believe his NLWC change will be invigorating on a level he's never known.

4) JB-He is still top 3 in his weight class even if he doesn't go next year. I believe he only loses to Dake or Sidakov the remainder of his career.

5) Ringer-His style will translate smoothly to 86kg. He is essentially better than Hidlay in every way. I believe Hidlay had BLM our best international results this season at 86kg.

6) Nickal-87kg and beating everything at 92kg with ease(Zillmer will be a semifinalist at 97 next year)

7) Fix-His brute strength and freestyle chops make him a contender at whatever weight he chooses.

8) Gwiz-When he is on only the best can beat him.

9) IMart-We saw him hold his on at the continental cup up at 79 and despite losing via tech in the finals, it was more or less a one move match.

10) Oliver-I believe a healthy and in-shape Oliver is a contender at whatever weight he chooses(65/70). If he cannot make 65 and be healthy I would even interested in seeing him at 74 for the Oly trials.

If Taylor is in it and back to form he is in that 1-4 range as well.

Edited by nhs67
Added Taylor section.

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3 hours ago, CaliWrestler said:

Taylor out until he shows up and medals again. There is no reason for him to ranked above JB or Snyder since they each got 3rd in worlds 2019 while Taylor was not wrestling 

Disagree. Depends on how much weight you put on the “recent” factor 

Edited by AZ_wrestling

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11 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

1. J'den Cox

2. Kyle Dake

3. Snyder

4. JB

???

 

Do I have it right?  What about 5-10?

This may be right, but I’d like to see how the top 2 do at an Olympic weight (I know Cox won Bronze in 2016).

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In this least condescending way, I feel like we give Dake too lofty of praise for beating Hasanov 2 years in a row.
Hasanov is just ok. Yes he beat Gadzi  who is a 1x world bronze medalist. but meh... I dunno just a 100% Personal feel.

1.) Jden Cox. Reigning World Champ, has wins over a ton of notables. Reaching the peak of his dominance. 4x world medalist... yall know the stuff.

2.) JB (I know its unpopular) The weight was an absolutely grinder and he lost to Sidakov... I know he has "lost a step" in some of yall's eyes. but P4P I only have him behind Cox.

3.) (if Taylor was competing throw him in here) The Dake/Snyder problem is my problem with P4P rankings. People say "But Snyder has accomplished more"... yeah... who cares.... Dake is a "better wrestler", with more potential moving forward.... so I would give Dake the nod here

4.) Snyderman....

5 thru forever....  Zain, Yainni, Fix, Ringer, JO, Imar, Zahid, Nickal, I won't argue your order. But currently:
J. Cox is our best wrestler and JB is #2. Yes Dake won Gold, but who wouldn't have at 79kg this year (if somebody says "you wouldnt have" my eyes will roll out of my head)

Happy Arguing guys.

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On 10/14/2019 at 11:12 AM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

1. J'den Cox

2. Kyle Dake

3. Snyder

4. JB

???

 

Do I have it right?  What about 5-10?

I think until Dake beats JB you gotta have him ahead. I know it’s gold vs bronze the last couple years but the weight class and depth have to matter, especially when they have a very lopsided series between them. 

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Agree JB is ahead of Dake and 79 is not an Olympic weight, but by that same token, how is Cox the clear 1 then? He’s not if we’re using the same criteria for all on the list, which we should. 
 

As for who wouldn’t have won 79, how about the guy who beat JB and took him to the edge in a 3-series match, Imart? Going by his very recent results at 79, I’d bet he probably wouldn’t win. 

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2 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Agree JB is ahead of Dake and 79 is not an Olympic weight, but by that same token, how is Cox the clear 1 then? He’s not if we’re using the same criteria for all on the list, which we should. 
 

As for who wouldn’t have won 79, how about the guy who beat JB and took him to the edge in a 3-series match, Imart? Going by his very recent results at 79, I’d bet he probably wouldn’t win. 

If you use Olympic weight vs non as the only, or even main  factor,  then yes by that theory it’s hard to put Cox at #1.  But if it’s just one of many factors, that opens the door a bit. With JB/Dake, again you have a whole series through multiple years that come in to play. Cox has the wins over Dake and Taylor, has looked SIGNIFICANTLY better since those wins, hasn’t been scored on in...how long??

My current top four would be Cox, JB, Dake, Taylor. 

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To play devil’s advocate, what are the criteria?

W/L record for past year? 3 years? 5 years?

Head to head wins?

Hardware at Olympic weights > at non-Olympic?

Points scored against?

My point is it’s an impossible list to be objective about. How do you knock Dake down but prop Cox up when they’re both 2x world champs at non-Olympic weights? I don’t think Dake’s weight was easier than Cox’s. Yes, Cox didn’t give up a point this year but neither did Dake last year and he was obviously injured this year and still won. You have 2-1 head to head record for Cox versus Dake, but does anyone with half a brain think that those results are truly reflective of both at the same exact weight? Cox probably had 20+ lbs on Dake who weighed in at 183, give or take. 

And if Cox and Dake aren’t that far apart, then what do you do with JB? No gold in a while but lost to Sidakov at a tough weight twice. Is that as good as non-Olympic gold? If not, at least his track record against Dake should suffice to put him over Dake, but then what about “the right look” criterion that gets bandied about? Does anyone think JB looks like one of our top 2 or 3 wrestlers? It isn’t just his losses (plural), but even his wins have been ugly on multiple occasions. Not ugly as in “he could’ve done more” but ugly as in “holy sht that was way too close.”

If you forgive JB for not passing the eye test of P4P 1 or 2, what about Snyder? At least he hasn’t lost to someone like Imart. And does the loss to Sadulaev even count on a US P4P list? He’s 1-1 against the best guy in the world and doesn’t crack top 4 P4P in the US?

Then there’s DT, world champ at an Olympic weight who can’t beat an American but can destroy a guy probably higher on the world P4P list  than DT is on any American list....

There’s no way to rank this list objectively. Your list shows your bias, plain and simple. 

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45 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

To play devil’s advocate, what are the criteria?

W/L record for past year? 3 years? 5 years?

Head to head wins?

Hardware at Olympic weights > at non-Olympic?

Points scored against?

My point is it’s an impossible list to be objective about. How do you knock Dake down but prop Cox up when they’re both 2x world champs at non-Olympic weights? I don’t think Dake’s weight was easier than Cox’s. Yes, Cox didn’t give up a point this year but neither did Dake last year and he was obviously injured this year and still won. You have 2-1 head to head record for Cox versus Dake, but does anyone with half a brain think that those results are truly reflective of both at the same exact weight? Cox probably had 20+ lbs on Dake who weighed in at 183, give or take. 

And if Cox and Dake aren’t that far apart, then what do you do with JB? No gold in a while but lost to Sidakov at a tough weight twice. Is that as good as non-Olympic gold? If not, at least his track record against Dake should suffice to put him over Dake, but then what about “the right look” criterion that gets bandied about? Does anyone think JB looks like one of our top 2 or 3 wrestlers? It isn’t just his losses (plural), but even his wins have been ugly on multiple occasions. Not ugly as in “he could’ve done more” but ugly as in “holy sht that was way too close.”

If you forgive JB for not passing the eye test of P4P 1 or 2, what about Snyder? At least he hasn’t lost to someone like Imart. And does the loss to Sadulaev even count on a US P4P list? He’s 1-1 against the best guy in the world and doesn’t crack top 4 P4P in the US?

Then there’s DT, world champ at an Olympic weight who can’t beat an American but can destroy a guy probably higher on the world P4P list  than DT is on any American list....

There’s no way to rank this list objectively. Your list shows your bias, plain and simple. 

That's the beauty of it, everyone has their own particular "what weighs more".  Of course there's no way to be objective about it (with the exception of those that have actually wrestled).  Doesn't mean someone's list has to show bias, just shows what counts for more with each individual (although in some cases bias is sure to come into play).

Edited by Lurker

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To play devil’s advocate, what are the criteria?.....

There’s no way to rank this list objectively. Your list shows your bias, plain and simple. 


97% of the time you're my favorite. Poster.... the other 3% it gets dicey :)

In case you didnt know...
Fix-Yainni-Jb-Cox-Snyder-Steveson =Olympic team.....
after the trials we can revisit our forever meaningless P4P rankings.

*I wish we could incentivize these guys to compete at least every other month... sigh i need more results.

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Taylor beat Sharifov 12-2. Cox us 0-2 against him and Snyder 0-1.

Dake is 452-1(he lost freshman year in HS or some crap) against Taylor.

Burroughs is 86-1 against Dake.

So.

JB

Dake

Taylor

Cox

Snyder

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