U23 Discussion

[treep2000 901]

Thoughts or predictions?  A lot of unknowns going in, but, I am keenly interested in the top 3 weights:

92 - Nickal

97 - Singletary

125 - Kerkvliet

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

[ConnorsDad 553]

3 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Thoughts or predictions?  A lot of unknowns going in, but, I am keenly interested in the top 3 weights:

92 - Nickal

97 - Singletary

125 - Kerkvliet

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

I think Bo and Daniel will do well but I certainly wouldn't predict the finals. Singletary could easily go one and out. Problem with kerkvliet is is giving up five years to some of these guys and that's a big difference. Especially missing an ACL!

[TBar1977 3,757]

9 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

I think Bo and Daniel will do well but I certainly wouldn't predict the finals. Singletary could easily go one and out. Problem with kerkvliet is is giving up five years to some of these guys and that's a big difference. Especially missing an ACL!

Jordan Wood is a pretty good freestyler and Kerkvliet dominated him. I think he'll wrestle fine. 

[ConnorsDad 553]

1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Jordan Wood is a pretty good freestyler and Kerkvliet dominated him. I think he'll wrestle fine. 

Didnt I say I thought he would do well?

[TBar1977 3,757]

53 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Didnt I say I thought he would do well?

You did, but I sensed a significant "qualifier" statement. I am confident enough to say that if he is 100 percent healthy (another qualifier) then age won't be an issue (imo).

[Gantry 1,604]

It's impossible to know the level of competition at U23s, it varies greatly from year to year and weight to weight.  Some weights can be cakewalks because no good Russians/Iranians/Georgians/etc and others can be full of hammers. 

[ConnorsDad 553]

2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

You did, but I sensed a significant "qualifier" statement. I am confident enough to say that if he is 100 percent healthy (another qualifier) then age won't be an issue (imo).

It was a joke about the acl. But 5 years at this age is a lot.

[TBar1977 3,757]

7 hours ago, ConnorsDad said:

It was a joke about the acl. But 5 years at this age is a lot.

I am not worried about age at all. If he drops a match it will be most likely to a very talented wrestler. Kerkvliet is damn good. 

[TBar1977 3,757]

14 hours ago, treep2000 said:

Thoughts or predictions?  A lot of unknowns going in, but, I am keenly interested in the top 3 weights:

92 - Nickal

97 - Singletary

125 - Kerkvliet

Thoughts from the peanut gallery?

 

Bo Nickal has been playing a lot of Spikeball lately.  

Edited October 23, 2019 by TBar1977

[steamboat_charlie v2 939]

Don't forget how though this tournament can be.  Honestly if our 2019 senior team dualed the U23 champs from last year we'd probably lose.

Last year's tournament had 10 or so senior level world medalists, and a bunch more with very strong results at serious senior level tournaments.  Baev, Idrisov, Kentchadze, Higuchi, Naifonov, Nabiev, Shabani, Ghasempour, Kumar, Salkazanov... all studs.  

Let's wait to see the brackets, but there's not a single guy on our U23 squad that walks into this tournament as a favorite--including Nickal.  I like Pantaleo, Eierman, Nickal, and Kerkvliet's chances to medal, but a bad draw could easily take down any of them.  

 

[bnwtwg 419]

At first I thought you were wrong, but after doing some quick napkin math you're probably right that the U23 champs could beat the 2019 US team in a dual.

57 - Fix probably wins 3-0 US

61 - Graff loses to the 2019 Senior world silver medalist. Probably majored. 3-4 U23

65 - Zain loses, possible major but say he keeps it close. 3-7 U23

70 - Salkanov took bronze up at 79, Baev won worlds at 70 with a tech in the finals. So yeah Green gets majored at best teched at worst. 3-11 U23

74 - JB wins 6-11 U23

79 - Dake wins 9-11 U23

86 - Downey probably loses by tech. Ghasempour won the Asian games this year and sits behind a multi world champ. 9-16 U23

92 - Cox wins 12-16 U23

97 - Snyder has teched him before, I assume the same. 17-16 US

125 - Gwiz probably wins, but would not be surprised at all if Gamidov won. 20-16 US

Swing matches would be 57, 65, and 125. It would also depend on 61, 70, and 86 keeping the score close.

[steamboat_charlie v2 939]

37 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

At first I thought you were wrong, but after doing some quick napkin math you're probably right that the U23 champs could beat the 2019 US team in a dual.

I was sort of thinking more take your pick from the U23 medalists... such as:

57 -- Kumar (IND) beats Fix -- Fix has a good chance but Kumar beat Takahashi after Fix lost to him... 
61 -- Idrisov (RUS) beats Graff -- Idrisov heavy favorite
65 -- Higuchi (JAP) beats Zain -- Until Zain actually beats someone of Higuchi's caliber he's the underdog here
70 -- Baev (RUS) beats Green -- Not that close
74 -- Burroughs beats Kentchadze (GEO) -- JB favored but this is far from a gimme
79 -- Dake beats Nabiev (RUS) -- He just beat him 5-1 anyway
86 -- Ghasempour (IRI) or Naifonov (RUS) beat Downey -- Not close, in either case
92 -- Cox beats Zubairov (AZE) -- J'den beats anyone
97 -- Snyder beats Shabani (IRI) -- Their match was close at Dogu though
125 -- Gamidov (RUS) beats Gwiazdowski -- I'd consider this a tossup.  

That would be 6-4 U23 squad.  If Gwiz wins the tossup it's 5-5.  Anyway, my overall point was that it's damn tough to win this tournament if last year's entrants are anything to go on.  I think we can expect a similar level this year. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by steamboat_charlie v2

[MDogg 273]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

At first I thought you were wrong, but after doing some quick napkin math you're probably right that the U23 champs could beat the 2019 US team in a dual.

57 - Fix probably wins 3-0 US

61 - Graff loses to the 2019 Senior world silver medalist. Probably majored. 3-4 U23

65 - Zain loses, possible major but say he keeps it close. 3-7 U23

70 - Salkanov took bronze up at 79, Baev won worlds at 70 with a tech in the finals. So yeah Green gets majored at best teched at worst. 3-11 U23

74 - JB wins 6-11 U23

79 - Dake wins 9-11 U23

86 - Downey probably loses by tech. Ghasempour won the Asian games this year and sits behind a multi world champ. 9-16 U23

92 - Cox wins 12-16 U23

97 - Snyder has teched him before, I assume the same. 17-16 US

125 - Gwiz probably wins, but would not be surprised at all if Gamidov won. 20-16 US

Swing matches would be 57, 65, and 125. It would also depend on 61, 70, and 86 keeping the score close.

Lack of par terre game really hurts us when it comes to bonus point wins. 

Interesting that when you consolidate guys into their expected Olympic weight classes it wouldn’t be close. IAssuming this is our team (my current prediction but who knows) US wins 5 of 6:

57: Fix

65: Zain

74: Dake

86: Cox (but doesn’t matter if it’s him or DT)

97: Snyder

125: Gwiz

My personal opinion, but swap out Yianni for Zain and US could sweep all 6 against the U23 champs (though I’m not saying I’d have Yianni as the favorite...but he stands a much better chance than Zain in my opinion). That also assumes Baev goes up to 74 not down to 65. 

[bnwtwg 419]

The ironic part of the US par terre in this fantasy dual is that Snyder teched Matcharashvili by hitting guts on him and turning him at will, and we can all agree that Snyder has never been known for his par terre offense. 

And yes, anyone not wearing PSU/ NWLC blinders will agree that even though Zain won 2 out of 3 when the roster spot was on the line and earned the right to be the US rep, Yianni is the better choice against international competition. But Zain won and that's how it goes.

[TBar1977 3,757]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

The ironic part of the US par terre in this fantasy dual is that Snyder teched Matcharashvili by hitting guts on him and turning him at will, and we can all agree that Snyder has never been known for his par terre offense. 

And yes, anyone not wearing PSU/ NWLC blinders will agree that even though Zain won 2 out of 3 when the roster spot was on the line and earned the right to be the US rep, Yianni is the better choice against international competition. But Zain won and that's how it goes.

The way you wrote that makes it sound like when the roster spot was on the line Zain won 2x while Yianni won 1x, i.e. Zain won 2 out of 3. In reality, when that spot was on the line Zain won 2x to zero, the arbitrator took one win away and then Zain won the very next match that counted. So Zain is either 3-0 or 2-0 vs. Yianni with the spot on the line, depending on how you look at it. 

Good thing for Zain they simply don't just "choose" the wrestlers cause he'd obviously be the bridesmaid to the more popular Yianni. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by TBar1977

[steamboat_charlie v2 939]

1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

The way you wrote that makes it sound like when the roster spot was on the line Zain won 2x while Yianni won 1x, i.e. Zain won 2 out of 3. In reality, when that spot was on the line Zain won 2x to zero, the arbitrator took one win away and then Zain won the very next match that counted. So Zain is either 3-0 or 2-0 vs. Yianni with the spot on the line, depending on how you look at it. 

Good thing for Zain they simply don't just "choose" the wrestlers cause he'd obviously be the bridesmaid to the more popular Yianni. 

Fair enough, but Yianni isn't more popular "just because."  

[bnwtwg 419]

Because that’s the way I wrote it. Zain won fair and square; Zain is not the best competitor for a medal at 65kg, in my opinion and that of many others. 
 

I hope that is less ambiguous.

[Lurker 1,382]

18 hours ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Fair enough, but Yianni isn't more popular "just because."  

To your point, It's not even a matter of popular.  The international results speak for themselves.  Yianni has two senior gold medals, one of them at a ranking series tournament, just this year.  How many senior medals does Zain have all together?  Not saying that mean gives him the spot, you gotta win the spot.  But anyone that can't see the difference in international performance isn't looking to be objective at all.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Lurker

[boconnell 1,417]

33 minutes ago, Lurker said:

To your point, It's not even a matter of popular.  The international results speak for themselves.  Yianni has two senior gold medals, one of them at a ranking series tournament, just this year.  How many senior medals does Zain have all together?  Not saying that mean gives him the spot, you gotta win the spot.  But anyone that can't see the difference in international performance isn't looking to be objective at all.

The national results also speak for themselves.

[TBar1977 3,757]

42 minutes ago, Lurker said:

To your point, It's not even a matter of popular.  The international results speak for themselves.  Yianni has two senior gold medals, one of them at a ranking series tournament, just this year.  How many senior medals does Zain have all together?  Not saying that mean gives him the spot, you gotta win the spot.  But anyone that can't see the difference in international performance isn't looking to be objective at all.

Honestly, this is over blown. 

Yianni wrestled Dogu which, while a nice event, is a tune up event for our senior team. There were three (4 if you include the gassed out Musakaev) really good guys in that event. He beats Musakaev mainly because the guy gassed badly. Otherwise he loses that match. He beat Zain 9-5, but that was a tune up event not the main event for Zain. Bajrang didn't even show up. 

Zain doesn't have International Tourney wins, but look at who has beaten him. Medal winners. And all by very small 1 point margins. If Yianni had to wrestle medal winners at Worlds, not BTS, he probably loses those matches too. There isn't a shred of proof he could win them because he can't get past Zain at Trials. 

The events that really counted here, Zain won all of them. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by TBar1977

[Lurker 1,382]

14 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Honestly, this is over blown. 

Yianni wrestled Dogu which, while a nice event, is a tune up event for our senior team. There were three (4 if you include the gassed out Musakaev) really good guys in that event. He beats Musakaev mainly because the guy gassed badly. Otherwise he loses that match. He beat Zain 9-5, but that was a tune up event not the main event for Zain. Bajrang didn't even show up. 

Zain doesn't have International Tourney wins, but look at who has beaten him. Medal winners. And all by very small 1 point margins. If Yianni had to wrestle medal winners at Worlds, not BTS, he probably loses those matches too. There isn't a shred of proof he could win them because he can't get past Zain at Trials. 

The events that really counted here, Zain won all of them. 

Textbook display of someone who only wants to look at things in a way that favors their guy, and not objectively. Coming up with all these excuses why his guy has far inferior results then the other guy. Results are results. They are facts, not opinions, no matter how much someone tries to excuse them away. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Lurker

[Lurker 1,382]

34 minutes ago, boconnell said:

The national results also speak for themselves.

I'm solely talking about why the majority of the people are of the opinion that Yianni is a better shot at a medal.

[klehner 386]

23 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Honestly, this is over blown. 

Yianni wrestled Dogu which, while a nice event, is a tune up event for our senior team. There were three (4 if you include the gassed out Musakaev) really good guys in that event. He beats Musakaev mainly because the guy gassed badly. Otherwise he loses that match.

In your zeal to pump Zain and dis Yianni at all times, do you even consider what you are saying when you write nonsense like that?

(hint:  perhaps Musakaev gassed precisely because he took the match out at an unsustainable pace?)

[TBar1977 3,757]

22 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Textbook display of someone who only wants to look at things in a way that favors their guy, and not objectively. Coming up with all these excuses why his guy has far inferior results then the other guy. Results are results. They are facts, not opinions, no matter how much someone tries to excuse them away. 

Show me the results or facts that show Yianni to have beaten any of the guys Zain lost to at Worlds or at that Russian Tournament. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by TBar1977

[Lurker 1,382]

1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Show me the results or facts that show Yianni to have beaten any of the guys Zain lost to at Worlds or at that Russian Tournament. 

I'm not interested in your excuse making, nor am I interested in going back to look match by match of the senior record to play along with your excuse making. Close losses are not better results than comeback wins.  Yianni has better senior level international results to date.  There's really no debate on that, they are facts, you can you can try to twist and turn all you want, it doesn't change the facts.  That is why the majority of people feel he is the better medal shot.  I'm not saying he is, I'm saying why most people are of that opinion.

 And I really have nothing left to say on it.  Because there is nothing left to say on it.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Lurker