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10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I'm not interested in your excuse making, nor am I interested in going back to look match by match of the senior record to play along with your excuse making  Yianni has better senior level international results to date.  There's really no debate on that, they are facts, you can you can try to twist and turn all you want, it doesn't change the facts.  That is why the majority of people feel he is the better medal shot.  I'm not saying he is, I'm saying why most people are of that opinion.

 And I really have nothing left to say on it.  Because there is nothing left to say on it.

You have nothing left to say on it? Well, you haven't offered anything anyway. You brought up "facts" so I asked you for facts to support your opinion. You offered no real facts of any consequence. 

Wrestler A beating wrestler B while wrestler C beats wrestler D does not make A better than D, yet that seems to be your argument. 

If you change your mind and decide to look up the results, let me know. Until then, I believe Yianni has never beaten the medal winners Zain barely lost to. Not a single one of them. Not once. Ever. Feel free to prove that claim wrong. 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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4 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Wrestler A beating wrestler B while wrestler C beats wrestler D does not make A better than D, yet that seems to be your argument. 

I guess you missed the part where I said I am not saying Yianni is the better medal threat, or chose to block it out to fit your narrative.  Either way, nice try.

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I guess you missed the part where I said I am not saying Yianni is the better medal threat, or chose to block it out to fit your narrative.  Either way, nice try.

Well, you claim he has better Senior In'l results to date. What is that based on, him winning Dogu? His best win at Dogu was Zain. But he loses to Zain in the matches that really count. So I gave you some facts to bolster my argument, and then you said I didn't have facts. 

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15 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Well, you claim he has better Senior In'l results to date. What is that based on, him winning Dogu? His best win at Dogu was Zain. But he loses to Zain in the matches that really count. So I gave you some facts to bolster my argument, and then you said I didn't have facts. 

Okay.  Enjoy the rest of your day sir.

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22 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

The way you wrote that makes it sound like when the roster spot was on the line Zain won 2x while Yianni won 1x, i.e. Zain won 2 out of 3. In reality, when that spot was on the line Zain won 2x to zero, the arbitrator took one win away and then Zain won the very next match that counted. So Zain is either 3-0 or 2-0 vs. Yianni with the spot on the line, depending on how you look at it. 

Good thing for Zain they simply don't just "choose" the wrestlers cause he'd obviously be the bridesmaid to the more popular Yianni. 

Weird argument to make, seeing as Zain went 0-1. 
 

if we used the Russian system, Yianni may have gone as he had a win over the returning world silver

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29 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Well, you claim he has better Senior In'l results to date. What is that based on, him winning Dogu? His best win at Dogu was Zain. But he loses to Zain in the matches that really count. So I gave you some facts to bolster my argument, and then you said I didn't have facts. 

His best win at Dogu was certainly not Zain. It was Musukaev. You tried to hand wave that away like it didn't matter because he gassed, but that's part of wrestling (and especially laughable considering Zain's closest calls with international success have been largely comeback attempts where his opponent fades). Fact is, to my knowledge Zain doesn't have an international win that even approaches that one. Zain beat Yianni fair and square and wrestled some great matches to do it, but when it comes to overall international results, Yianni has the edge. Doesn't mean Zain won't be the guy going forward and won't have success, but the results are the results. You can't shout "the sky is green" just because you're a Zain fan.

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19 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Not at Trials he didn't. 

Well, yeah duh, but that's not the argument lol. You said it's a good thing they don't just pick the team, which implies that they would have been worse off had they done that, but it's impossible to do worse than 0-1. You kind of owned yourself there.

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31 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

His best win at Dogu was certainly not Zain. It was Musukaev. You tried to hand wave that away like it didn't matter because he gassed, but that's part of wrestling (and especially laughable considering Zain's closest calls with international success have been largely comeback attempts where his opponent fades). Fact is, to my knowledge Zain doesn't have an international win that even approaches that one. Zain beat Yianni fair and square and wrestled some great matches to do it, but when it comes to overall international results, Yianni has the edge. Doesn't mean Zain won't be the guy going forward and won't have success, but the results are the results. You can't shout "the sky is green" just because you're a Zain fan.

Well, Yianni is 0-3 against Zain with the berth on the World team on the line. That is the best evidence of which of them is better. 

Their tournament results are against different wrestlers whereby transitive property does not apply. Its like suggesting that a wrestler who wins the Bearcat Open but doesn't qualify for NCAA's because he couldn't beat a guy in his league. Then that guy he can't beat goes on to place 5th at NCAA's. To suggest he is better than a 5th place guy at NCAA's because he has won a college tournament and the NCAA 5th placer has not is a weak argument. 

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16 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Well, yeah duh, but that's not the argument lol. You said it's a good thing they don't just pick the team, which implies that they would have been worse off had they done that, but it's impossible to do worse than 0-1. You kind of owned yourself there.

You can't know in advance what the draws will be. Pat Downey did better than 0-1 and he isn't anywhere near the wrestler Zain is. 

Yazdani Charati went 0-1 at 2018 Worlds, so by your logic Pat Downey's 2019 results show he was better than the 2018 version of Yazdani. You do realize how dumb that is, right? 

Edited by TBar1977

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8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Well, Yianni is 0-3 against Zain with the berth on the World team on the line. That is the best evidence of which of them is better. 

Their tournament results are against different wrestlers whereby transitive property does not apply. Its like suggesting that a wrestler who wins the Bearcat Open but doesn't qualify for NCAA's because he couldn't beat a guy in his league. Then that guy he can't beat goes on to place 5th at NCAA's. To suggest he is better than a 5th place guy at NCAA's because he has won a college tournament and the NCAA 5th placer has not is a weak argument. 

Missing the point. To this date, Yianni unquestionably has better international wins. You can't deny that. It doesn't necessarily mean he's better and he got beat fair and square by Zain. However, then to go on to say it's lucky they didn't send Yianni when he has wins over both bronze medalists AND Zain went 0-1 makes you look silly.

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15 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Well, Yianni is 0-3 against Zain with the berth on the World team on the line. That is the best evidence of which of them is better.  

0-2. I mean you can count the win that was thrown out due to an illeagel process that changed the winner.... (If you actually do believe that), but in the real world everyone knows the reality.  Additionally they are 2-2 against each other, flipping wins each time. 

Seriously. Why can’t you have a disagreement without slanting and tilting things to your agenda. Why can’t you just shoot straight. You’d be taken a lot more seriously. It’s not like your slants are going to help Zain next year in any way shape or form. 

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6 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Missing the point. To this date, Yianni unquestionably has better international wins. You can't deny that. It doesn't necessarily mean he's better and he got beat fair and square by Zain. However, then to go on to say it's lucky they didn't send Yianni when he has wins over both bronze medalists AND Zain went 0-1 makes you look silly.

Yianni beat one guy at BTS after he flew in from India and the other at Yasar Dogu, a warm up tournament in which he was totally outclassing Yianni before gassing out. Had he beat them at Worlds you'd have a solid point, but as is not so much. You guys always mocked DT for winning the Spanish Grand Prix. Well, Yianni's Yasar Dogu is DT's Spanish Grand Prix. 

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27 minutes ago, Lurker said:

0-2. I mean you can count the win that was thrown out due to an illeagel process that changed the winner.... (If you actually do believe that), but in the real world everyone knows the reality.  Additionally they are 2-2 against each other, flipping wins each time. 

Seriously. Why can’t you have a disagreement without slanting and tilting things to your agenda. Why can’t you just shoot straight. You’d be taken a lot more seriously. It’s not like your slants are going to help Zain next year in any way shape or form. 

I didn't start this. You guys keep saying Yianni is the better guy despite the fact Zain keeps beating him when it matters most. I am just stating the other side, and it takes two to make an argument. So what ever I am doing, you two are also doing. Pot. Kettle. You know the drill. 

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4 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I didn't start this. You guys keep saying Yianni is the better guy despite the fact Zain keeps beating him when it matters most. I am just stating the other side, and it takes two to make an argument. So what ever I am doing, you two are also doing. Pot. Kettle. You know the drill. 

You truly do have reading comprehension problems don’t you. How many times in this thread (I know at least twice directly to you) have I said  I’m not saying who’s better or who is the better medal threat. I’m simply saying why the majority are of that opinion. And that’s just it, I’m not talking about having a differing opinion, I’m talking about making an argument on its merits, not twisting and turning in slanting....for example continuously saying I’m saying he’s better when I’ve told you directly twice, along with others, that’s not what I’m saying. But again, that doesn’t fit your agenda so you have to twist it. This is why you have the reputation on here that you do. Probably the most closed minded, unable to set aside bias, poster on this board. 

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

You truly do have reading comprehension problems don’t you. How many times in this thread (I know at least twice directly to you) have I said  I’m not saying who’s better or who is the better medal threat. I’m simply saying why the majority are of that opinion. And that’s just it, I’m not talking about having a differing opinion, I’m talking about making an argument on its merits, not twisting and turning in slanting....for example continuously saying I’m saying he’s better when I’ve told you directly twice, along with others, that’s not what I’m saying. But again, that doesn’t fit your agenda so you have to twist it. This is why you have the reputation on here that you do. Probably the most closed minded, unable to set aside bias, poster on this board. 

You want to make that little distinction that you aren't saying Yianni is the better guy, just that you understand why they make that claim. Not much of a distinction there, but whatever. 

And why is their argument so good but mine is "twisting and slanting"? Yianni beat two guys at events that are not where you would expect them to be at peak, but this is the evidence he is the better guy despite the fact he keeps losing to Zain when it matters. Why is that twisting and slanting? Seems perfectly valid to me. 

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16 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You want to make that little distinction that you aren't saying Yianni is the better guy, just that you understand why they make that claim. Not much of a distinction there, but whatever. 

And why is their argument so good but mine is "twisting and slanting"? Yianni beat two guys at events that are not where you would expect them to be at peak, but this is the evidence he is the better guy despite the fact he keeps losing to Zain when it matters. Why is that twisting and slanting? Seems perfectly valid to me. 

There’s no reason for me to explain how you twist and turn, beyond how I already have, you’re twisting and slanting because you are totally incapable of looking at anything concerning PSU objectively. I never said their argument is so good, If you don’t think there’s a difference between agreeing with someone, and not necessarily agreeing with someone but being able see their point of view, well then....I mean that pretty much says it right there. You can’t see the difference, kind of what I’m talking about with you. Very closed minded. 

Edited by Lurker

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47 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Yianni beat one guy at BTS after he flew in from India and the other at Yasar Dogu, a warm up tournament in which he was totally outclassing Yianni before gassing out. Had he beat them at Worlds you'd have a solid point, but as is not so much. You guys always mocked DT for winning the Spanish Grand Prix. Well, Yianni's Yasar Dogu is DT's Spanish Grand Prix. 

"Yianni beat two guys at a level that Zain has never remotely approached, but it doesn't count because I've decided they don't count."

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

You can't know in advance what the draws will be. Pat Downey did better than 0-1 and he isn't anywhere near the wrestler Zain is. 

Yazdani Charati went 0-1 at 2018 Worlds, so by your logic Pat Downey's 2019 results show he was better than the 2018 version of Yazdani. You do realize how dumb that is, right? 

Since when did Yazdani C go 0-1 in the 2018 worlds?  He went 3-1 and went home with a bronze medal.  In an earlier post you said "Their tournament results are against different wrestlers" - that's true except for the tournament result against each other at YD.  Did that one slip your mind?  Bottom line is Zain earned the WT spot fair and square.  To date Yianni has been better in senior level international Tournaments.  Still to make the Olympic team YD will probably have to beat Zain (hopefully in a best 2 out of 3)  

Edited by lu1979

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Just now, lu1979 said:

Since when did YD go 0-1 in the 2018 worlds?  He went 3-1 and went home with a bronze medal.  In an earlier post you said "Their tournament results are against different wrestlers" - that's true except for the tournament result against each other at YD.  Did that one slip your mind.  Bottom line is Zain earned the WT spot fair and square.  To date Yianni has been better in senior level international Tournaments.  Still to make the Olympic team YD will probably have to beat Zain (hopefully in a best 2 out of 3)  

You are obviously correct about Yazdani winning thru repechage. My haste, my mistake. But you get the point I am making as this happens all the time where someone shows up and gets the bad draw and goes 0-1. 

I don't discount Yianni beating Zain at Dogu, I just don't hold it in quite as high regard as Zain beating Yianni at Team Trials. 

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