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Cox to 86kg — because he wants to block DT?

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3 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Even if Downey is the 1 seed the likelihood that he makes it to the semis is not the highest. The bigger question is how they seed regarding the finals. Do you give Taylor the 4 so that he makes it? Do you give Taylor the 3 based on past merit? On its face this would punish Ringer but the reality is that the 4 seed would be the best draw. That said it doesn't matter because they wrestle for true 2nd/ true 3rd**

image.png.2c9fd035f7481441b8d07148fd4e8fe6.png

 

**Am I incorrect on this? If so I will edit immediately.

 

According to what I read about seeding, since the weight is not qualified we go off head to head in the last year and then victories over common opponents. I dont believe that Downey has beaten anybody of note. Hell, I dont know if any have met each other. If that is the case, then DT and Cox 1 & 2 I would assume.

Edited by ConnorsDad

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3 hours ago, Lurker said:

Also at the OTT there will be a true second. If the second and third place finisher had not met they will match up. 

Not so...unless we’re just differing on semantics. At weights in which there’s a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 Sunday finals there’s a wrestle-off on Sunday for a “true 3rd” if the 2nd and 3rd place finishers of the mini-tournament have not met. I guess you could say that’s a match for a “true 2nd” of the mini-tournament...but the winner comes in 3rd overall in the Olympic trials. And that’s only in brackets where a returning medalist is sitting in the 2/3 finals. Wouldn’t apply to 86kg at the 2020 trials. The only “true 3rd” matches in the 2016 trials were at 74kg and 97kg...the only weights that had a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 finals

So in this case...if Downey gets the #1 seed and comes out of the top half, he would face whoever comes out of the bottom half in a best of 3 on Sunday. If, for example, he loses to Cox in that 2/3 championship he would be the overall 2nd place finisher at the trials without having to wrestle DT or Ringer for a “true 2nd.” 

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53 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

According to what I read about seeding, since the weight is not qualified we go off head to head in the last year and then victories over common opponents. I dont believe that Downey has beaten anybody of note. Hell, I dont know if any have met each other. If that is the case, then DT and Cox 1 & 2 I would assume.

Correct UNLESS Downey qualifies the weight before the Olympic trials, in which case he’d locked in as the #1 seed. And Cox won’t be seeded at all. Returning medalists at other weights classes get a bye to the bottom half semis without being seeded. 

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:

Correct UNLESS Downey qualifies the weight before the Olympic trials, in which case he’d locked in as the #1 seed. And Cox won’t be seeded at all. Returning medalists at other weights classes get a bye to the bottom half semis without being seeded. 

PanAm Olympic qualifier isnt until mid March by then Farrell and Open will have been wrestled . Imagine Cox or DT will be the guy sent to qualify the weight at PanAms

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2 hours ago, MDogg said:

Not so...unless we’re just differing on semantics. At weights in which there’s a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 Sunday finals there’s a wrestle-off on Sunday for a “true 3rd” if the 2nd and 3rd place finishers of the mini-tournament have not met. I guess you could say that’s a match for a “true 2nd” of the mini-tournament...but the winner comes in 3rd overall in the Olympic trials. And that’s only in brackets where a returning medalist is sitting in the 2/3 finals. Wouldn’t apply to 86kg at the 2020 trials. The only “true 3rd” matches in the 2016 trials were at 74kg and 97kg...the only weights that had a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 finals

So in this case...if Downey gets the #1 seed and comes out of the top half, he would face whoever comes out of the bottom half in a best of 3 on Sunday. If, for example, he loses to Cox in that 2/3 championship he would be the overall 2nd place finisher at the trials without having to wrestle DT or Ringer for a “true 2nd.” 

You’re  right I Roger Clemens that one (misremembered). True third for the national team member. There’s nothing ado with the alternate. 

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3 hours ago, MDogg said:

Not so...unless we’re just differing on semantics. At weights in which there’s a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 Sunday finals there’s a wrestle-off on Sunday for a “true 3rd” if the 2nd and 3rd place finishers of the mini-tournament have not met. I guess you could say that’s a match for a “true 2nd” of the mini-tournament...but the winner comes in 3rd overall in the Olympic trials. And that’s only in brackets where a returning medalist is sitting in the 2/3 finals. Wouldn’t apply to 86kg at the 2020 trials. The only “true 3rd” matches in the 2016 trials were at 74kg and 97kg...the only weights that had a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 finals

So in this case...if Downey gets the #1 seed and comes out of the top half, he would face whoever comes out of the bottom half in a best of 3 on Sunday. If, for example, he loses to Cox in that 2/3 championship he would be the overall 2nd place finisher at the trials without having to wrestle DT or Ringer for a “true 2nd.” 

Policy awfully confusing! Good thing for discussions here that MDogg (and others) know it so well. No joke.

Edited by jon

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Perhaps Flo can get a USAW official on one of their shows and provide some official light, rather than internet banter. They can save us all from devolving down and eventually arguing if Dake will beat Cox and if Yianni is better than Zain for the 123,308 time

How will the Pan Am reps be picked for the team as whole?

How will the OTT brackets work? Will Dake and Cox be given the #1 or #2 seed and a bye to the semi-finals a la 64 man bracket?

Will OTT have a true 2nd? What about a true 3rd? What will the recovery time be for post-championship into true-place matches?

 

Edited by bnwtwg

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If Taylor is at 100%, it is his to lose in my opinion.   Cox is good, but DT became better.  Cox has two Bronzes at the weight, DT has a gold and would have had two if he had not gotten hurt.  Plus he wiped the mat with most of his competition in the process.  It is DT's to lose in my opinion. 

mspart

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Here is my 2 cents.  

First as for Cox.  If we look at his first 2 years when he got bronze and beat DT and Dake for the spot.  He was pretty fresh out of college.  When he graduated he wasn't even sure if he wanted to wrestle at the world and Olympic level.  If I remember Smith talked to J'Den and when he decided too he said if he did it he wanted Eireman to coach him.  Also,  there was a point when J'Den was struggling with things.  After all he was only like 22 when he graduated if I remember right.  All the above are things that came from J'Den.  So when you look at all that J'Den was not at the focus and commitment level he is now.  Which he is all in now..  Yet he still walked away with Bronze twice.  Then he went up in weight, got a lot better and won 2 gold's.  

Now, Taylor obviously improved a ton, which seems to be the biggest point being made as for him being the favorite.  However, I think J'Den has improved a ton too.  He is all in now.  So psychologically and his focus is different than a couple years ago.  That all plays into his improvement. 

As for his weight. Again 2-years ago he wasn't as focused as he seems to be now.  He also has nutritionist and more resources at his disposal now.my assumption is that this will make weight cutting different and may not be as big as a factor as people think.  

His skill.  He is fast, he is strong, and his flexibility is insane. I think what is often overlooked is that J'Den had been one of the best freestyle wresters in the US since he was like 15, at least. I think since then he only has like 5 losses.  All to eventual olympic and world medalist at the senior level.  He isn't just falling into these medals by chance.  Him, Snyder, and JB are the most accomplished freestylers in the last decade.  He is also a 3X NCAA champ.  It is hard to believe he is still underappreciated by some people.

As for DT.  He is also a beast.  I do think he will be cutting quite a bit too, and he has his knee issue.  However, I would also bet he has the best people he can find preparing him.  I think he will be ready to go.  

I have Cox winning this, but it is going to be a phenomenal matchup. 

 

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12 hours ago, MDogg said:

Not so...unless we’re just differing on semantics. At weights in which there’s a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 Sunday finals there’s a wrestle-off on Sunday for a “true 3rd” if the 2nd and 3rd place finishers of the mini-tournament have not met. I guess you could say that’s a match for a “true 2nd” of the mini-tournament...but the winner comes in 3rd overall in the Olympic trials. And that’s only in brackets where a returning medalist is sitting in the 2/3 finals. Wouldn’t apply to 86kg at the 2020 trials. The only “true 3rd” matches in the 2016 trials were at 74kg and 97kg...the only weights that had a returning medalist sitting in the 2/3 finals

So in this case...if Downey gets the #1 seed and comes out of the top half, he would face whoever comes out of the bottom half in a best of 3 on Sunday. If, for example, he loses to Cox in that 2/3 championship he would be the overall 2nd place finisher at the trials without having to wrestle DT or Ringer for a “true 2nd.” 

So upon trying to digest the seeding criteria I have come up with the following seeds as of right now. That could change later in the year with any head to heads or any medalist at a UWW tournament but as of right now here's what I have. Nobody qualified the weight so nobody is advancing to the finals.

i. No head to head  in the last year for any of the top 4 I could find.
ii. No common opponents although I did not do a Nomad type deep dive.
iii. Medallist at a UWW event in the last year - Cox, Downey & Dierenger have all medalled in UWW events in the last year.
iiii. Majoriry vote

Now, I know there's a lot of time left and there's a distinct possibility that some of these guys could meet each other before the trials and maybe there would be some common opponents which comes before medaling at a UWW event. But it's possible that none of those could be the case if nobody competes in  anything but the Pan Am's.

So, assuming what I put down is correct so far which is obviously not a certainty, I would think Cox would be the one seed, Alex the two seed as they both won a gold in their event and Downey the three seed. That would leave Taylor as the 4 seed. Thoughts? Am I on crack? Regardless there's certainly a chance that it could all change but it could also all stay the same.

Edited by ConnorsDad
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12 hours ago, MDogg said:

Correct UNLESS Downey qualifies the weight before the Olympic trials, in which case he’d locked in as the #1 seed. And Cox won’t be seeded at all. Returning medalists at other weights classes get a bye to the bottom half semis without being seeded. 

Even if Downey qualifies the weight at the Pan Ams, there's nothing in the criteria listed to say that gets any preference over anything else or am I missing something? (In fact, it states that the athlete who qualifies the weight at Pan Ams is simply guaranteed an entry to the trials.) Head-to-head, common opponents, medalist from UWW event which he already is and majority vote determine the seeds. Now assuming he won Pan Ams that would mean he, Cox and Alex all have won a UWW event in the last year. I'm just spitballing here but I would assume it would then be a majority vote on who is seeded what. Yes, no or maybe?

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For everyone's convenience, the procedure is documented here. 

Seeding Citeria:

a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the  2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same  weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic  berth to Part Two as explained below.

That means Downey would get the 1 seed if he qualifies the weight at Pan Ams, 2019 Worlds or elsewhere.

Edited by Plasmodium

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3 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

For everyone's convenience, the procedure is documented here. 

Seeding Citeria:

a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the  2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same  weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic  berth to Part Two as explained below.

That means Downey would get the 1 seed if he qualifies the weight at Pan Ams, 2019 Worlds or elsewhere.

Which is why clarity regarding how the Pan Am team is selected is so critical in his situation. Downey earner the right to try to qualify the weight at 2019 Worlds. In so doing, did he also earn the right to try again at Pan Ams? If not, how will the team be decided?

And what about Zain? Similar situation, except in his case, he beat the clear 2nd best guy at the weight while PD3 did not. But does that even matter with regard to how the Pan Am team is selected?

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9 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

For everyone's convenience, the procedure is documented here. 

Seeding Citeria:

a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the  2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same  weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic  berth to Part Two as explained below.

That means Downey would get the 1 seed if he qualifies the weight at Pan Ams, 2019 Worlds or elsewhere.

 

6 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Which is why clarity regarding how the Pan Am team is selected is so critical in his situation. Downey earner the right to try to qualify the weight at 2019 Worlds. In so doing, did he also earn the right to try again at Pan Ams? If not, how will the team be decided?

And what about Zain? Similar situation, except in his case, he beat the clear 2nd best guy at the weight while PD3 did not. But does that even matter with regard to how the Pan Am team is selected?

I may be in the minority or hell I may be the only one that thinks this but the way I read that is the world team member only gets the 1 seed and the buy to the finals if he qualifies the weight or medals at the world championships. If they meant the pan am's as well then why say qualify the weight and medal because at the pan am's if he qualifies the weight he has to medal. Like I said maybe my interpretation is wrong. Regardless, if Downey is the one seed I don't see him beating either of the other three in the semis.

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1 hour ago, ConnorsDad said:

 

I may be in the minority or hell I may be the only one that thinks this but the way I read that is the world team member only gets the 1 seed and the buy to the finals if he qualifies the weight or medals at the world championships. If they meant the pan am's as well then why say qualify the weight and medal because at the pan am's if he qualifies the weight he has to medal. Like I said maybe my interpretation is wrong. Regardless, if Downey is the one seed I don't see him beating either of the other three in the semis.

5th place at Worlds qualifies the weight, que no?  The way I read it, the 1 seed doesnt get a bye.  The medalist at a different weight doesnt get seeded but is placed on the other side.

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On 10/24/2019 at 11:06 PM, Plasmodium said:

No disputing who was more consistent at that weight two years ago.  Cox beat him head to head - when it counted most.  I think Cox has made lots of changes that are paying off and DT is fresh off a serious injury in his thirtieth year. Time will tell.

Moving on - People talk about Cox making weight under the new rules, but what about Taylor?  He looks like he cuts a considerable amount of weight.  I think that part is a wash.

Taylor has performed well under the new rules at 86, Cox has not competed under those rules at 86 because he said himself that he had a tough time making weight under the old rules.  So that’s where the speculation comes in. 

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3 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

5th place at Worlds qualifies the weight, que no?  The way I read it, the 1 seed doesnt get a bye.  The medalist at a different weight doesnt get seeded but is placed on the other side.

Yeah that's not what I'm talkin about though but you're correct. My point of contention is if you read up in the criteria it says that a 2019 team member who qualifies the weight for the Olympics will receive the one seed and will receive a bye to the finals if he's a medalist. Some people believe, and maybe correctly, that this also means the 2019 world team member gets the same benefits if he qualifies the weight at the Pan Ams in March. I am of the opinion that he does not as it only refers to this year's world's. My reasoning is if you interpreted to mean that a 2019 team member qualifies the weight at the pan am's, if he does so he will automatically be a medalist and then that would mean that he would get a bye to the finals and I think only a world medalist gets a bye to the finals. Therefore, whoever qualifies the weight at the pan am's is not necessarily going to be the 1 seed.

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3 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

5th place at Worlds qualifies the weight, que no?  The way I read it, the 1 seed doesnt get a bye.  The medalist at a different weight doesnt get seeded but is placed on the other side.

Yeah that's not what I'm talkin about though but you're correct. My point of contention is if you read up in the criteria it says that a 2019 team member who qualifies the weight for the Olympics will receive the one seed and will receive a bye to the finals if he's a medalist. Some people believe, and maybe correctly, that this also means the 2019 world team member gets the same benefits if he qualifies the weight at the Pan Ams in March. I am of the opinion that he does not as it only refers to this year's world's. My reasoning is if you interpreted to mean that a 2019 team member qualifies the weight at the pan am's, if he does so he will automatically be a medalist and then that would mean that he would get a bye to the finals and I think only a world medalist gets a bye to the finals. Therefore, whoever qualifies the weight at the pan am's is not necessarily going to be the 1 seed.

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Can we all at least agree that Cox should not be placed in a semi with Ringer or Taylor? As a 2x reigning world champ and 4x medalist overall, he has the resume that should give a little bracket rigging so that he has the best chance to make the finals and get a best 2 out of 3. A single match against a previous world champ (Taylor) and a ladder rep that is top-15ish in the world (Ringer up at 86) is just awful.

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