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Cox to 86kg — because he wants to block DT?

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22 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Which is why clarity regarding how the Pan Am team is selected is so critical in his situation. Downey earner the right to try to qualify the weight at 2019 Worlds. In so doing, did he also earn the right to try again at Pan Ams? If not, how will the team be decided?

And what about Zain? Similar situation, except in his case, he beat the clear 2nd best guy at the weight while PD3 did not. But does that even matter with regard to how the Pan Am team is selected?

Unless the selection for Pan Ams have changed since this year's process, our 2020 Pan Am reps will be our World Team members first, then go down the placement ladder from WTT/finalx if the topmost rep cannot go. There's a section that explicitly says there's no discretionary selection criteria.

If I'm Downey or Zain and want to game the process (or just be a jerk to the #2 or 3 guy) I would skip the Pan Am training camp, which is disqualifying, and make the next guy in line go and compete at the last minute. Schedule wise, it would be pretty tough for J'Den to have to make weight and compete at Pan Ams then again at OTTs in the span of like 14 days. DT would also have to make weight, plus he will be recovering from injury and juggling dad & baby stuff. Yianni will have to beat Tobier or YBR and would probably rather be at home training with his brother for Nationals.

Of course, the weights need to be qualified for the USA and that's a big concern but why not make an opponent run the gauntlet and then roll the dice, if the weight still isn't qualified after Pan Ams, at the final qualifier a month after trials?

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Hello everybody  .My first post.I'm not american.So sorry for spelling mistakes. Wrestling isn't popular em my country). I I train/compite  in Wrestling 8 years.Im a bronze medal in 

state championship and I think I've a good chance of finght in  the national (Brazilian).

 

i'm a big fan of Cox.I'm not a strong or fast wrestling.I like his footwork and motion e and up to a point I have a similar wrestling

If he go to 86k I hope he wins the Olympic gold medal .

Cox has the best defense, footwork motion.   Yazdani has the best transitions between  atacks,Taylor is  the strongest and his  your ability to drag  his body and make takedown are superior

 

 

Edited by NOGI

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9 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

Can we all at least agree that Cox should not be placed in a semi with Ringer or Taylor? As a 2x reigning world champ and 4x medalist overall, he has the resume that should give a little bracket rigging so that he has the best chance to make the finals and get a best 2 out of 3. A single match against a previous world champ (Taylor) and a ladder rep that is top-15ish in the world (Ringer up at 86) is just awful.

Absolutely not. He knows the rules and if he wants the benefits then take what it gives you,  a bye to the semis, or wrestle at an Olympic weight. As soon as you start talking about rigging something for somebody, it's  BS IMO.

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4 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

If PD3 won pan ams, his path to the second day of trials would be free of Cox, Taylor and Ringer. 

I am skeptical that the pan am team for 2020 is the 2019 team.

Winning the pan am's gives him no seeding benefit at least by my reading. Seeding starts with Head to Head, common opponents, UWW medalists and a vote. Winning the pan am's is none of those

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4 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

If PD3 won pan ams, his path to the second day of trials would be free of Cox, Taylor and Ringer. 

I am skeptical that the pan am team for 2020 is the 2019 team.

Although he would probably be seeded at worst 4 anyway and so would probably still avoid them until the semi-finals.

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12 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Winning the pan am's gives him no seeding benefit at least by my reading. Seeding starts with Head to Head, common opponents, UWW medalists and a vote. Winning the pan am's is none of those

Whoever qualifies the weight gets the 1 seed.

I've seen that thrown out here by several folks that tend to know their crap.

If Downey qualifies at PanAms he gets the 1. That puts likely Taylor and Cox in the bottom.

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Also @pamela, it is clear in the rules that if anyone on the team (1-2-3) cannot fulfill without an actual reason then they lose their stipend. So skipping is out.

I believe we'll see Downey at Pan-Ams and that we won't see the best version of him at the Trials. It will be difficult to see him peak twice in a few weeks.

Hell, maybe he skips for that reason. I could see if all three on the ladder were accepting of that same understanding, but I doubt that Heflin would agree to something that potentially benefits Downey.

The crap-shoot is how do you convince USAW that you won't be medically ready for PanAms but would be for the trials 2 weeks later?

I may seem like a huge detractor on these forums to @Blue Dragons son(AKA Downey), but I would love to see the best version of Downey ever give Cox, Ringer, Zahid, Taylor, etc all more than they could handle. Seeing him beat 2 or 3 of the toons that everyone(myself included) is saying would have done better at worlds would make me very happy as a wrestling fan.

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

It behooves PD3 to wrestle in PanAms.  Full Stop.

I agree.

I believe a fully-peaked well-healed Downey qualifies the weight, or is well capable of it.

He is the 2nd best senior level #1 in the western hemisphere. The problem is thusly on if he'll be on the same side as our friend, the Cubano. I'm unsure on if or how they will be seeding.

So say he does qualify the weight. He gets the 1st seed at OTT.  The downside to the one seed is that he is now at best well-healed if not dinged up from Pan-Ams. He won't be fully-peaked.

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13 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Whoever qualifies the weight gets the 1 seed.

I've seen that thrown out here by several folks that tend to know their crap.

If Downey qualifies at PanAms he gets the 1. That puts likely Taylor and Cox in the bottom.

Oh well that is certainly official, rolling eyes.

Seeding Criteria
a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the 2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic berth to Part Two as explained below.

If that tells us the qualifier of the weight at Pan Ams is the 1 seed, then not only is it poorly worded but I guess he gets a bye to the finals then.

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1 minute ago, ConnorsDad said:

Oh well that is certainly official, rolling eyes.

Seeding Criteria
a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the 2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic berth to Part Two as explained below.

If that tells us the qualifier of the weight at Pan Ams is the 1 seed, then not only is it poorly worded but I guess he gets a bye to the finals then.

My interpretation is this:

-World team member who qualifies the weight gets the #1 seed. This means any chance they get before the OTT, which would mean 2019 WC or 2020 P-A.

-If the world team member medals at the 2019 WC then he receives the bye to the finals.

I am less certain on the aim of my first morning pisser than I am of that interpretation, FWIW. Take that how you wish to.

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15 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Oh well that is certainly official, rolling eyes.

Seeding Criteria
a. A 2019 World Championship team member who qualifies the weight for the 2020 Olympic Games will automatically receive the #1 seed at the same weight category in which he qualified, with medalists earning an automatic berth to Part Two as explained below.

If that tells us the qualifier of the weight at Pan Ams is the 1 seed, then not only is it poorly worded but I guess he gets a bye to the finals then.

Why does that sentence tell you the qualifier of the weight at Pan Ams is the number one seed? The sentence is entirely about the results of "2019 World Championship team member." 

But here is a question - What exactly is a "2019 World Championship team member?"  Just the rep who actually wrestled at worlds or top three @ trials?  Are Yanni D, Nick Heflin, Thomas Gilman and Gabe Steveson eligiible, for example.

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43 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Why does that sentence tell you the qualifier of the weight at Pan Ams is the number one seed? The sentence is entirely about the results of "2019 World Championship team member." 

But here is a question - What exactly is a "2019 World Championship team member?"  Just the rep who actually wrestled at worlds or top three @ trials?  Are Yanni D, Nick Heflin, Thomas Gilman and Gabe Steveson eligiible, for example.

I also do not think the criteria are confusing as currently worded (more on this later).

With regard to the definition of "2019 world championship team member", there should be no confusion: the winner of the WTT is the national team member, and everyone else is not. The top 3 from WTT are considered to be on the "national team", but only the winners are on the "world team."

Here is a listing of world team members historically: https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Team-USA/World-Team-History

Here is a listing of current national team members: https://www.teamusa.org/usa-wrestling/team-usa/national-team-bios

Further clarity is provided by the 2019 World Team Trials procedures statement: "If a World Team member at any weight is incapacitated after the World Team Trials and prior to the World Championships, the Sport Committee shall assign the World Team spot to the next-ranked alternate at the weight in question down to the fifth-ranked wrestler from the World Team Trials; provided the next-ranked wrestler is able to make the weight and is substantially completing the requirements of World Team training."

There should be no doubt as to who the world team member is at 86 kg: It's PD3.

Now.... on to the topic of PD3 qualifying the weight.  

There are two parts to the OTT. Part 1 is a seeded tournament that determines who faces the returning medalist at a particular Olympic weight (e.g. Dake and Cox are not returning medalists at an Olympic weight). Part 2 is the best-of-three series between the winner of Part 1 and the returning world medalist. In the event that there are no returning medalists at a particular weight, the finalists of Part 1 advance to Part 2. It's simple.

Seeding for part 1:

If PD3 (the only 2019 world team member at 86 kg) qualifies 86 kg at Pan Ams, he gets the #1 seed for part 1. Since there are no returning medalists at 86 kg, this means that if PD3 makes the finals of Part 1, he moves on to face whoever else makes it to the finals in a best -of-three (i.e. part 2). This is a huge advantage for PD3 in this particular year because Cox and DT would very likely be on the opposite side of the part 1 brackets as the 2 and 3 seeds, respectively (Cox, by virtue of being a returning medalist at an adjacent weight and having the edge over DT in head-to-head matches ... and DT by virtue of being the next best wrestler objectively). 

 

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14 hours ago, ConnorsDad said:

Absolutely not. He knows the rules and if he wants the benefits then take what it gives you,  a bye to the semis, or wrestle at an Olympic weight. As soon as you start talking about rigging something for somebody, it's  BS IMO.

So punish Cox because of the IOC removing weight classes and make him pull weight or bulk up. Got it.

I'm simply suggesting Taylor on one half with Ringer because that's their "punishment" for being injured and not being able to defend a world championship and sitting behind a world champion, respectively; Cox on the other half so that they can go best of three rather than the first match of the day determine the olympic rep.

Beating Russia means this is an arms race So the question is do you want the best possible rep which can be determined in three matches, or one match? Please don't be so naive as to think two world champions should only get one match so that PD3, Heflin, or whoever can get the honor of being teched in the final. They deserve better than that.

Sometimes you may have to get your hands a little dirty and make sure a bracket is set up correctly, like when UWW made sure Sad and Snyder met in the finals 2x rather than the semis.

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It is impossible to have an objective process that satisfies everyone and takes into account all possible edge cases. I think the process for 2020 is the best we have ever had. It is ridiculous and unfortunate that Cox does not easily fit into one of the very few Olympic weights, but it makes sense that all he gets is a bye to the semis of Part 1. Imagine that Dake decided to go up instead of down. Then, you would have three world champions at one weight. It makes sense that the two world champs would get byes to the semis and not the finals... because anything more would mean there would be no tournament at all in Part 1. It would be a wrestle-off between Cox and Dake for the right to face the returning world medalist at the Olympic weight. 
 

Ironically, I think getting injured last year helps DT (obviously, I’m assuming he will be fully recovered by OTT). All PSU fans should root for PD3 to qualify the weight at Pan Ams. That would likely set up a DT vs Cox semi match, and DT would only have to beat Cox once. Cox is ridiculously hard to beat twice. Neither DT nor Dake could do it. I wonder if even Snyder could do it. The best scenario for DT is to have to beat a sucked out Cox only once, and he may get that opportunity if PD3 qualifies the weight. 

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10 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Word on the street is that Cox will be moving to the Ohio RTC to fill their vacancy at 97kg.

Super awkward then when he shows up for OTT at 86kg. That would make half the top 6 being training at the ORTC in Heflin, Martin, and Cox.

Then there been is the void left at 213lbs still...

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

It is impossible to have an objective process that satisfies everyone and takes into account all possible edge cases. I think the process for 2020 is the best we have ever had. It is ridiculous and unfortunate that Cox does not easily fit into one of the very few Olympic weights, but it makes sense that all he gets is a bye to the semis of Part 1. Imagine that Dake decided to go up instead of down. Then, you would have three world champions at one weight. It makes sense that the two world champs would get byes to the semis and not the finals... because anything more would mean there would be no tournament at all in Part 1. It would be a wrestle-off between Cox and Dake for the right to face the returning world medalist at the Olympic weight. 
 

Ironically, I think getting injured last year helps DT (obviously, I’m assuming he will be fully recovered by OTT). All PSU fans should root for PD3 to qualify the weight at Pan Ams. That would likely set up a DT vs Cox semi match, and DT would only have to beat Cox once. Cox is ridiculously hard to beat twice. Neither DT nor Dake could do it. I wonder if even Snyder could do it. The best scenario for DT is to have to beat a sucked out Cox only once, and he may get that opportunity if PD3 qualifies the weight. 

I think everyone here is missing the biggest question (and potentially the biggest issue) with the 86 bracket: will Cox be seeded? As I understand the OTT rules Cox will not be seeded, he’ll just be sitting in the bottom semis. That’s means if the seeds are 1) Downey, 2) DT, and 3) Ringer then DT and Ringer will meet in what’s effectively the quarterfinals, and the winner will have to face a rested Cox in the bottom semis. 

The seeding rules clearly state that Cox will be in the bottom semis, but does not say he will be seeded. If they automatically place him in the bottom semis how can they seed him? What if he’s the #1 seed...then what does the bracket look like? 

If Downey qualifies the weight at Pan Ams then Cox, Ringer and Taylor will all be on the same side of the bracket assuming Ringer and DT are the next 2 highest seeds after Downey gets the automatic #1 seed. 

It will result in the single most lopsided bracket I’ve ever seen...and at one of our deepest weights in a very, very long time. The real travesty is that it means the first alternate will come out of the top half. 

Edited by MDogg

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2 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I also do not think the criteria are confusing as currently worded (more on this later).

With regard to the definition of "2019 world championship team member", there should be no confusion: the winner of the WTT is the national team member, and everyone else is not. The top 3 from WTT are considered to be on the "national team", but only the winners are on the "world team."

Here is a listing of world team members historically: https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Team-USA/World-Team-History

Here is a listing of current national team members: https://www.teamusa.org/usa-wrestling/team-usa/national-team-bios

Further clarity is provided by the 2019 World Team Trials procedures statement: "If a World Team member at any weight is incapacitated after the World Team Trials and prior to the World Championships, the Sport Committee shall assign the World Team spot to the next-ranked alternate at the weight in question down to the fifth-ranked wrestler from the World Team Trials; provided the next-ranked wrestler is able to make the weight and is substantially completing the requirements of World Team training."

There should be no doubt as to who the world team member is at 86 kg: It's PD3.

Now.... on to the topic of PD3 qualifying the weight.  

There are two parts to the OTT. Part 1 is a seeded tournament that determines who faces the returning medalist at a particular Olympic weight (e.g. Dake and Cox are not returning medalists at an Olympic weight). Part 2 is the best-of-three series between the winner of Part 1 and the returning world medalist. In the event that there are no returning medalists at a particular weight, the finalists of Part 1 advance to Part 2. It's simple.

Seeding for part 1:

If PD3 (the only 2019 world team member at 86 kg) qualifies 86 kg at Pan Ams, he gets the #1 seed for part 1. Since there are no returning medalists at 86 kg, this means that if PD3 makes the finals of Part 1, he moves on to face whoever else makes it to the finals in a best -of-three (i.e. part 2). This is a huge advantage for PD3 in this particular year because Cox and DT would very likely be on the opposite side of the part 1 brackets as the 2 and 3 seeds, respectively (Cox, by virtue of being a returning medalist at an adjacent weight and having the edge over DT in head-to-head matches ... and DT by virtue of being the next best wrestler objectively). 

 

Nerd, Good to hear from you. First there's no doubt just like you said that Downey is the world team member and deservedly so. And I'm not even saying that your point of view is wrong. It's probably what they intended. But I'm just saying the way it's worded is really bad. I'm paraphrasing here " world team members who qualify the weight are the number one seed with (and this is how it's worded) medalists receiving a bye to the finals.

If everybody is taking that sentence to mean if Downey qualifies the weight at the world championships or pan am's he's the number one seed, then why would you not apply the same logic to the second part of the sentence where it says medalists receive a bye. If he qualifies the weight at the pan am's he's going to be a medalist. Nowhere in that statement does it say anything about only World Championship medalist get the bye nor does it say World Championship or Pan Am qualifiers  of the weight get the number one seed. Obviously some clarification or better wording would be nice. No I don't think he's going to get a bye for medaling at pan am's. You got a statement dealing with qualifying the weight and receiving the number one seed and receiving a bye. If the qualifying and number one seed part can be obtained at Worlds or pan am's then why would you assume the Medalist part receiving the bye does not apply to both worlds or pan ams. Badly worded.

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9 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Nerd, Good to hear from you. First there's no doubt just like you said that Downey is the world team member and deservedly so. And I'm not even saying that your point of view is wrong. It's probably what they intended. But I'm just saying the way it's worded is really bad. I'm paraphrasing here " world team members who qualify the weight are the number one seed with (and this is how it's worded) medalists receiving a bye to the finals.

If everybody is taking that sentence to mean if Downey qualifies the weight at the world championships or pan am's he's the number one seed, then why would you not apply the same logic to the second part of the sentence where it says medalists receive a bye. If he qualifies the weight at the pan am's he's going to be a medalist. Nowhere in that statement does it say anything about only World Championship medalist get the bye nor does it say World Championship or Pan Am qualifiers  of the weight get the number one seed. Obviously some clarification or better wording would be nice. No I don't think he's going to get a bye for medaling at pan am's. You got a statement dealing with qualifying the weight and receiving the number one seed and receiving a bye. If the qualifying and number one seed part can be obtained at Worlds or pan am's then why would you assume the Medalist part receiving the bye does not apply to both worlds or pan ams. Badly worded.

By "medalist", they clearly mean world medalist at an Olympic weight and not Pan-Am medalist. The passage you excerpted is part of a document that references "medalist" many times. The entire document that details procedures references the word "medalist" in only two contexts: (1) bronze or above in 2019 Worlds at an Olympic weight and (2) bronze or above in 2019 Worlds at a non-Olympic weight.

The context for "medalist" in your excerpt is provided several paragraphs above: "A 2019 Senior World Championship Olympic weight category medalist will  receive an automatic berth to the 2020 U.S. Olympic Team Trials finals, at that  respective weight (Part Two best‐of‐three series)."

If you read the entire document, it is clear that 2019 World Olympic weight medalists bypass part 1 of the OTT process altogether and sit in the final best-of-three (i.e. JB and Snyder) and 2019 World non-Olympic weight medalists go right to the semis of the tournament in part 1 (i.e. Dake, Cox). Everyone else starts from scratch in round 1 of the tournament that is part 1.

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