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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

It's not my opinion. It's literally how it is defined for revenue and non revenue sports.  Money that PSU pays Cael through the university is an expense.  Money that is paid to him through NLWC does not count as an expense.  In some sports in power 5 conferences, the athletes have good reason to complain that they are not properly compensated (Basketball, Football), since they bring in more money than the university spends.  In others, such as wrestling, they bring in less money than they spend and money from football/basketball is used to subsidize expenses and scholarships.  

If an alumnus gives money to the university, which is used to pay for a coach or scholarship, that does not change the fact that the program is revenue negative.  It just means somebody is willing to make a donation to subsidize it. 

 

So when somebody like Nickal complains that flo is making money off his likeness, he should factor in the 200K+ in scholarships/housing that he received, along with the expense of his world class facilities and coaching.  

Unless you can show me something in the University/NCAA guidelines (or whatever) that says that Alumni gifts are NOT part of income and that they are discounted in the equation it is your opinion not to count it. This IS money that is brought into the U as a result of running the sport so, of course it's part of the equation. Because if they had to treat the situation by forgetting they got the money they'd likely drop the sport. 

I didn't say that it wasn't a reasonable/valid way to look at things but no matter what you say, it is still an opinion as to how to look at the profit situation. It is revenue to the U no matter what you think. Apparently, ND looked at it the way you suggest when they took the major gift to wrestling and then convinced the widow to let it become part of the general athletic fund and dropped the sport (92?). They were looking at NCAA violations on the coaches but they redirected money in wrestling specific to the general fund instead of firing the coaches.

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1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

Unless you can show me something in the University/NCAA guidelines (or whatever) that says that Alumni gifts are NOT part of income and that they are discounted in the equation it is your opinion not to count it. This IS money that is brought into the U as a result of running the sport so, of course it's part of the equation. Because if they had to treat the situation by forgetting they got the money they'd likely drop the sport. 

I didn't say that it wasn't a reasonable/valid way to look at things but no matter what you say, it is still an opinion as to how to look at the profit situation. It is revenue to the U no matter what you think. Apparently, ND looked at it the way you suggest when they took the major gift to wrestling and then convinced the widow to let it become part of the general athletic fund and dropped the sport (92?). They were looking at NCAA violations on the coaches but they redirected money in wrestling specific to the general fund instead of firing the coaches.

If your point is that wrestling would not exist at the NCAA level without alumni donations, I agree.  That’s why wrestlers are lucky to get scholarships for what they do. They do not produce enough revenue to match the expense of their tuition, travel, and coaches. The little they do produce comes from the broadcast rights to their matches, ticket sales, and merch. So flowrestling did in fact pay Nickal-they just did so indirectly via the value of his education, housing, food, coaches, facilities, training, etc. The value he got as a PSU athlete likely exceeded the revenue that he generated for them. 

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4 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

If your point is that wrestling would not exist at the NCAA level without alumni donations, I agree.  That’s why wrestlers are lucky to get scholarships for what they do. They do not produce enough revenue to match the expense of their tuition, travel, and coaches. The little they do produce comes from the broadcast rights to their matches, ticket sales, and merch. So flowrestling did in fact pay Nickal-they just did so indirectly via the value of his education, housing, food, coaches, facilities, training, etc. The value he got as a PSU athlete likely exceeded the revenue that he generated for them. 

What role did Flo play in giving Bo an education?  Non-revenue sport scholarships existed before Flo.  If anything, if Flo is actually “growing the sport,” they’ve helped him be more able to make some money via wrestling after college.

For the record I think they’re both right.  Flo doing what Bo suggested might’ve been cool.  But I don’t think one should have expected Flo to think of it on their own.  I agree with the previous poster that said Bo probably should’ve reached out privately to sell his idea.

I didn’t see the video in question though....was it more than like 5-10 minutes long?  I’m imagining just a highlight video showing like the 5-10 seconds before the pin.   Adding commentary to it probably would’ve tripled the length.

Edited by 1032004

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4 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

If your point is that wrestling would not exist at the NCAA level without alumni donations, I agree.  That’s why wrestlers are lucky to get scholarships for what they do. They do not produce enough revenue to match the expense of their tuition, travel, and coaches. The little they do produce comes from the broadcast rights to their matches, ticket sales, and merch. So flowrestling did in fact pay Nickal-they just did so indirectly via the value of his education, housing, food, coaches, facilities, training, etc. The value he got as a PSU athlete likely exceeded the revenue that he generated for them. 

 

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

What role did Flo play in giving Bo an education?  Non-revenue sport scholarships existed before Flo.  If anything, if Flo is actually “growing the sport,” they’ve helped him be more able to make some money via wrestling after college.

For the record I think they’re both right.  Flo doing what Bo suggested might’ve been cool.  But I don’t think one should have expected Flo to think of it on their own.  I agree with the previous poster that said Bo probably should’ve reached out privately to sell his idea.

I didn’t see the video in question though....was it more than like 5-10 minutes long?  I’m imagining just a highlight video showing like the 5-10 seconds before the pin.   Adding commentary to it probably would’ve tripled the length.

He's equating Flo's payout to the school to an alumni donation that ends up going to the same purpose. It's not that Flo's payout was earmarked for Nickal- or anyone in particular- but that it's money that can be used to offset other wrestling related costs.

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29 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

 

He's equating Flo's payout to the school to an alumni donation that ends up going to the same purpose. It's not that Flo's payout was earmarked for Nickal- or anyone in particular- but that it's money that can be used to offset other wrestling related costs.

So Penn State gets money from Flo?

If anything you could use that argument for someone like Oklahoma State who has an exclusive agreement with Flo.

Edited by 1032004

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23 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

 

He's equating Flo's payout to the school to an alumni donation that ends up going to the same purpose. It's not that Flo's payout was earmarked for Nickal- or anyone in particular- but that it's money that can be used to offset other wrestling related costs.

Not exactly.

Flo pays BTN for the rights to Bo’s matches. PSU profits from the the money paid to BTN. PSU pays for the tuition, housing, food, coaching, etc of the athletes. So Bo both generated the value in his matches through competition and benefited from it. In wrestling, the amount schools spend on the sport is less than is generated in revenue from sources like BTN, so that athletes have a really good deal. 

Alumni donations help subsidize the cost of the program, but are not actually generated by the athletes. They don’t factor into whether a sport generates profit. 

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

So Penn State gets money from Flo?

If anything you could use that argument for someone like Oklahoma State who has an exclusive agreement with Flo.

They pay BTN for the rights to the matches and PSU profits from BTN. So the money flo pays for broadcast rights contributes to PSU and the athletes there. 

 

I am often critical of flo, but they deserve zero criticism on this. They are one of the few entities that creates value in the sport. And even with the unwarranted shot Bo took at them, it sounds like they are on board with his idea of commentating on some of his matches. It’s not a bad idea and could create some interesting content. I sure value his insights over a non expert commentator. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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6 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

They pay BTN for the rights to the matches and BTN and PSU profits from BTN. So the money flo pays for broadcast rights contributes to PSU and the athletes there. 

And so does alumni donations....

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8 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

And so does alumni donations....

Yes, but those are not generated by the athletes. So in Basketball the NCAA tournament makes so much money that the programs are profitable. In a situation in which athletes were paid, they would see a share of this revenue because they are responsible for it. 

Wrestling does not generate nearly as much money-athletes receive far more in benefits than they directly produce. They should not have a grievance with the NCAA and in big universities like PSU the wrestlers are likely being partially subsidized by the football and basketball programs. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Some of Flo money does go directly to the institution. I'm more familiar with the tournament running operations where this happens. I wasn't sure where the money "Flowed" in this situation but my point to 1032004 was the indirect nature of your statement rather than the more direct one he thought. I guess you're suggesting that it's double indirect. I don't see anywhere in the merger article from a couple years ago how the money went to the school but it makes sense to go the way you said since I think it would have required the league and schools to renegotiate.

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

Yes, but those are not generated by the athletes. So in Basketball the NCAA tournament makes so much money that the programs are profitable. In a situation in which athletes were paid, they would see a share of this revenue because they are responsible for it. 

Wrestling does not generate nearly as much money-athletes receive far more in benefits than they directly produce. They should not have a grievance with the NCAA and in big universities like PSU the wrestlers are likely being partially subsidized by the football and basketball programs. 

Here I disagree. Alumni donations ARE generated by the athletes as much as media money. Or at least because of them. The alumni are donating to wrestling (name your sport) specific funds to benefit the athletes. It might not be as clear as seeing the athletes on film but it's the reason for it. Alums do also like to see their names on buildings but schools are supposed to be about the kids attending so any money is for their benefit.

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Why are you getting into broadcast rights, btn, ncaa....when he merely says something like : let me do commentary on my moves so I can profit from it too!  

Rather have him or any other wrestler comment on their own move than a handfull of ignorant Flo guys guessing on what he was thinking

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8 minutes ago, tbert said:

Why are you getting into broadcast rights, btn, ncaa....when he merely says something like : let me do commentary on my moves so I can profit from it too!  

Rather have him or any other wrestler comment on their own move than a handfull of ignorant Flo guys guessing on what he was thinking

The criticism that flo profits off of wrestlers without contributing is wrong. The idea that Bo could add even more value by commentating is a good one. There wasn’t a need to call flo out on the former in order to do the latter.

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2 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

The criticism that flo profits off of wrestlers without contributing is wrong. The idea that Bo could add even more value by commentating is a good one. There wasn’t a need to call flo out on the former in order to do the latter.

I just dont think Bo stating that Flo profits is a big deal, they have taken over a grand from me over the years. It was stating the obvious with a little self promotion, love it.  Now lets see if Flo takes him up on the offer. 

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"According to operating budgets Ohio State shares with the NCAA, football represented nearly $90 million of the athletic department’s $185 million in revenue in 2017, the most recent year with data available. That year, athletics expenses totaled $173 million, leaving the school with an athletics surplus of around $12 million.

Other sports don't bring in any money for the department. In fact, every sport besides football, men's basketball and wrestling actually costs Ohio State money."

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2019/04/16/take-me-out-to-the-ballgame-heres-how-spring.html
 

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2 hours ago, tbert said:

I just dont think Bo stating that Flo profits is a big deal, they have taken over a grand from me over the years. It was stating the obvious with a little self promotion, love it.  Now lets see if Flo takes him up on the offer. 

Not a great way to reach out tho. Why call Flo out on social media?  The issue here is with the NCAA. Flo paid for those rights and owe him nothing at all. Most wont agree with this, but i think he looks like a fool here. He has no grounds to demand compensation.

Edited by russelscout

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4 hours ago, tbert said:

Why are you getting into broadcast rights, btn, ncaa....when he merely says something like : let me do commentary on my moves so I can profit from it too!  

Rather have him or any other wrestler comment on their own move than a handfull of ignorant Flo guys guessing on what he was thinking

Because they may not see that as being worth the cost to pay Bo on top of the rights they already paid for, and frankly, thats just perfectly fine and their right.

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Bo not the only stakeholder here. My opinion: Question is not 'What does Flo owe Bo?' [A: zilch] but rather what does Flo owe subscribers? And also: What does NCAA owe fans? Flo is not lifeblood for wrestling. If not Flo then some other group would have partnered with NCAA, B1G, etc. Perhaps this hypothetical other group would make better use of footage than does Flo... Bo's public call-out has sparked good discussion here. Yes Bo wrong about details but he's not spouting nonsense.

Such """unprecedented""" coverage may well have casualties + costs... Bo Nickal fans lose out on Bo Nickal 'block party' commentary. Pennsylvania fans miss out on their own state tourney(s?)! Beat The Streets a charity event but yet now behind a paywall?

Trying to get back on topic. Bo's comments spark good discussion. Without public discussion of Flo shortcomings, Flo may well never improve... I'd like to know who, at Flo, does what. I suspect FloFilms folks focus on films.

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21 minutes ago, jon said:

Bo not the only stakeholder here. My opinion: Question is not 'What does Flo owe Bo?' [A: zilch] but rather what does Flo owe subscribers? And also: What does NCAA owe fans? Flo is not lifeblood for wrestling. If not Flo then some other group would have partnered with NCAA, B1G, etc. Perhaps this hypothetical other group would make better use of footage than does Flo... Bo's public call-out has sparked good discussion here. Yes Bo wrong about details but he's not spouting nonsense.

Such """unprecedented""" coverage may well have casualties + costs... Bo Nickal fans lose out on Bo Nickal 'block party' commentary. Pennsylvania fans miss out on their own state tourney(s?)! Beat The Streets a charity event but yet now behind a paywall?

Trying to get back on topic. Bo's comments spark good discussion. Without public discussion of Flo shortcomings, Flo may well never improve... I'd like to know who, at Flo, does what. I suspect FloFilms folks focus on films.

Yes, but this isnt about all those other things. This is about Bo "calling out" flo because of his lack of compensation on something he didnt have any right to be compensated for. Why would Flo even assume he would want to be involved when Cael and Co. at PSU have never embraced flowrestling. PSU doesn't want to give any access, but the moment a wrestler graduates, flo should be trying to make sure to find a way for the PSU guys to get paid? 

Edited by russelscout

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

Because they may not see that as being worth the cost to pay Bo on top of the rights they already paid for, and frankly, thats just perfectly fine and their right.

I dont care if they do or dont.  If they did I would have a better chance of watching it than with their band of dipsticks commenting on it.     ...... and in turn have a better chance of refinancing my properties with their lone sponsor.  

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

Not a great way to reach out tho. Why call Flo out on social media?  The issue here is with the NCAA. Flo paid for those rights and owe him nothing at all. Most wont agree with this, but i think he looks like a fool here. He has no grounds to demand compensation.

He wasn’t really demanding compensation.  He was offering to provide a service.   But he could’ve went about it better.

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On 10/24/2019 at 8:53 AM, TBar1977 said:

Someone should post what Yianni's little brother Greg tweeted at J Den Cox about this, then how J Den responded to him. 

J Den knows how to shut someone up. 

 

 
 
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Edited by 1032004
darn this technology stuff

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I’m guessing there was a ratio of joking around along with some dig. Bo’s a pretty loose joking kinda guy. Don’t think there was anything wrong with going on twitter either. Those flo boys live for these kind of social media posts and the discussion that follows. He’s not asking for any kind of handout or money for what he’s done, but offering to provide a service for something a lot of people would be interested in. Personally thought it was funny, and nothing for anyone to get upset over. See no problem here. 

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