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Jimmy Cinnabon

What happens when the "wrong" guy wins the wrestleoff?

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So Ohio State had their wrestleoffs last night and one interesting result was that unranked (and rather unheralded) Zach Steiner beat #17 Gavin Hoffman.  Hoffman was a blue chip recruit (3x PA state champ, #5 ranked p4p) who beat fellow blue chipper Michael Beard head to head, and Beard is projected to be an immediate finalist threat at 197.  Hoffman went 25-3 in his red shirt year and was expected to immediately contend for the finals at 184.

So we all know wrestling guys in your room always leads to tighter matches but it was still a BIG surprise to see Steiner beat Hoffman. 

So what happens now?  Does Hoffman get to start anyway?  That would seem unfair.

Or do they continue wrestling off until they achieve the "result" they want?  Which is Hoffman being the starting 184.  

Or is it possible Steiner is truly the better wrestler and should start over Hoffman? 

Edited by Jimmy Cinnabon

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Similar situation happened last year with Ohio State with Gary Traub beating Singletary in their wrestle-off and that was the "wrong guy" but Ohio State did roll with Traub to start with if I remember correctly but by the time a few opens had passed Singletary went the rest of the way obviously. I don't know if they hit a second time or not but I don't remember them wrestling again. I mean Hoffman is better than Singletary so I don't know what they will do but history repeats itself so don't be surprised if you see Steiner getting the go-ahead.

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Every team handles things differently and every situation is different. Some may do the open route and who places better at tournaments, some just go with the wrestleoff winner and that’s it, others may bump a weight class to try and make the lineup another way.

 

One of my favorite examples of this was Redshirt frosh Ben Bennett beating returning NCAA runner up Mike Miller in the wrestleoffs at CMU. Bennett went on to AA that year and finish as a 4x AA. Miller went up to 184 and unfortunately dealt with injuries the rest of his career.

 

It all boils down to what the coach sees that is going on in his room everyday and can see how a person is performing and that the wrestleoff win might not have been a fluke and chooses to ride that hand.

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47 minutes ago, scribe said:

Cinnabon vs Ragu wrestle off. Which is the right guy?

If there's a tilt in there somewhere, Ragu probably smothers 'bon.

Then again,  Jimmy could crack Ragu and break things open. 

But I think Ragu is the guy - mangia bene!

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36 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Tom Ryan will wait for a sign from God on who the starter will be. Sometimes God will email him what his lineup should be.

God will use the Michigan State Open to send his sign as to who the Ohio State 184 starter will be, and Tom Ryan will accept that as he is a follower and believer. Unless Steiner wins again, then God will re appear at CKLV and Tom Ryan will accept that result, because he believes. 

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Maybe the wrong guy didn't win?  Maybe Hoffman has a case of the HEW?  Stranger things have happened, and will continue to occur. 

MSU Open, to TBar's point, will prove a bit... as will CKLV (and time in between). 

If Hoffman can't deliver, then he'll go with Steiner.  

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I agree tournament placement can help determine the starter...but if we go solely by that why bother having a head to head wrestleoff?  I would say that Steiner having won the H2H should be the starter unless they have drastically different results at tournaments.  I.e. Hoffman wins the whole thing while Steiner goes 1-2.

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Steiner earned the title of "starter" for the time being, and there are no guarantees for the wrestle off winner.  They didn't send the starters to the MSU open last year.  I imagine this year they might.  

For now I say throw the lineup conversation out the window.  They need to figure out why Hoffman isn't performing well.  It's not an effort issue.  Who cares if he wins back his starting spot only to be the 9th best guy in the Big 10?

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Years ago, similar things were going on at Iowa.

From what I understand, King Mueller was a returning NCAA bronze medalist and defeated Jimmy Zalesky in wrestle offs, but Gable put him in at 158 anyway, and Jimmy responded with a 5th and 3 titles. https://iwcoa.net/hall-of-fame-2/king-mueller/

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Also,  Dean Phinney was a returning NCAA bronze medalist, but Lou Banach unseated him for the job. I imagine that big Lou defeated Dean, but not sure about any scores.

 

From what I've seen and heard from other programs, if the coach wants wrestler A in there, despite what B does, A will get the nod.

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If you know who the better wrestler is, don't hold the wrestle-off! 

If you don't know, a wrestle-off is probably the worst way to find out. 

Strange results often occur in wrestle-offs between guys who work out with each other everyday-by strange I mean results that are inconsistent with how the guys tend do against outside competition.  Use opens etc. to find out.

 

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There are lots of reasons to hold wrestle offs, or scrimmages preseason.  Determining the starting lineup is pretty far down the list.  Coaches see what's happening everyday and have a pretty good idea who the better wrestler is.  The preseason matchups provide an opportunity to make weight and scrap under the lights in front of fans.  Sometimes new guys can prove they can perform when it matters, if the coaches have doubts.  Sometimes, veterans don't take it too seriously and lose, but the coaches have no doubts about who is better.  Sometimes guys have made a jump in the room and coaches get see if that translates to match conditions.  These preseason matchups, along with practice habits, lifestyle, academics, Open performances, etc. all provide data points for the coaches to determine who the starters will be.  Not many coaches stake their lineup on one intrasquad match, other than the perhaps the first dual if it comes before an Open can give a better reading of the situation.  Intrasquad duals also serve to provide the fan base with a reason to get excited about the upcoming season.  Like I said, lots of reasons.

 

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22 hours ago, tigerfan said:

There are lots of reasons to hold wrestle offs, or scrimmages preseason.  Determining the starting lineup is pretty far down the list.  Coaches see what's happening everyday and have a pretty good idea who the better wrestler is.  The preseason matchups provide an opportunity to make weight and scrap under the lights in front of fans.  Sometimes new guys can prove they can perform when it matters, if the coaches have doubts.  Sometimes, veterans don't take it too seriously and lose, but the coaches have no doubts about who is better.  Sometimes guys have made a jump in the room and coaches get see if that translates to match conditions.  These preseason matchups, along with practice habits, lifestyle, academics, Open performances, etc. all provide data points for the coaches to determine who the starters will be.  Not many coaches stake their lineup on one intrasquad match, other than the perhaps the first dual if it comes before an Open can give a better reading of the situation.  Intrasquad duals also serve to provide the fan base with a reason to get excited about the upcoming season.  Like I said, lots of reasons.

 

Agreed. The coaches know if this was a fluke or if Steiner may actually be up to that level (or Hoffman has regressed). Even if it was a fluke, Steiner may get the spot early in the season as a wake up call to Hoffman.

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college wrestle offs are more for the fans then to determine the starting line up.  as others have said, coaches know who is the better wrestler from watching them day in and day out in the room.  Hoffman could have lost for any number of reasons that do not include being the less skilled wrestler.  

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