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pa in taiwan

What Bo could become

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After watching his finals match against the Russian, it has become clear to me that Bo Nickal has the potential to become as dominant in freestyle as he was in NCAA folkstyle. This would require a few commitments. Let me explain. Everyone knows that Bo has incredible hips and a long, lanky (but strong) frame, but the sad truth is that most Americans have zero, nada, zilch to offer on top in par terre. I know that Bo got some turns with the leg lace against Shahbazigazv of Iran, and it appears that he has worked on the lace. He needs to focus on par terre turns from gut wrenches and chest wraps. He's fantastic on his feet, and he really ran Tcakulov down on the low leg attacks. He finishes well from a large arsenal of different attacks from the feet. If he could follow that with the immediate turn, he would become super dangerous. 

I make the observation that if Bo Nickal trained for chest wraps and gut wrenches as hard as he has trained other techniques in the past, he could produce the best top par terre wrestling ever seen by an American. He has the body, the agility, the fluid movement and the strength to pull it off. What he lacks is the training and techniques in turning opponents from the top. 

I was disappointed in watching some Americans who did not even attempt to use a gut wrench or chest wrap into a turn. Yes, it expends a lot of energy, but the bottom guy gets just as drained defending it. I watched Alec Pantaleo in his one-point loss to Ibragimov of AZE at 70kg., and I saw him score a few slick takedowns early. I saw him lock up a gut and then transition to a chest wrap :30 seconds into the match. And then he didn't even ATTEMPT to turn Ibragimov with it. Now Pantaleo is strong. He has great upper body strength, and he should be turning guys with that high chest wrap, which crushes the air out of the opponent's lungs and drains him. One turn would have made the difference in that match. 

 

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If Bo leaves the sport for MMA it will be a huge loss.  This guy was born to wrestle.  Think about how far he's come in freestyle (with limited training) in just the past two years (in 2017 he was pretty far down the ladder though I can't recall exactly who he lost to, Heflin was one of the maybe) now he's world class (Imo, he'd have been a finalist at either 86 kg or 92 kg this year).  I feel like post 2020 (with DT retiring presumably) he could dominate the next four years at 86 kg. 

And yeah you're right, with his off the charts wrestling IQ and fluid style he will crush guys from par terre and with counter exposures if he stays with it. 

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8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Someone wrote that the RUS that Bo beat today by TF is the same guy that beat Bo at cadets 6 years ago. The inference being that Bo caught and passed the guy.

We can envision something similar between Bo and another guy that once beat him, Zahid V.

 

If you're talking about the comment by the Iranian poster who goes by "The Genius", I believe that he said the Russian won gold at Cadet's, while Bo competed for the bronze. I don't think he said that there was a head to head match. 

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Bo Nickal is 23, J'den Cox is 24, and Kyle Snyder is 23.  That's why Bo is going to MMA.  He might be a senior world medal caliber wrestler right now, but he wouldn't make a world team until DT retires and would never make an olympic team.  I agree that it would be great to have him for depth in years when a top guy gets hurt, but it just doesn't pay enough to be second string.  Only certain people have the passion/drive to spend years as the second guy on the ladder knowing you are talented enough to medal at worlds (guys like DT and Dake).  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

Bo Nickal is 23, J'den Cox is 24, and Kyle Snyder is 23.  That's why Bo is going to MMA.  He might be a senior world medal caliber wrestler right now, but he wouldn't make a world team until DT retires and would never make an olympic team.  I agree that it would be great to have him for depth in years when a top guy gets hurt, but it just doesn't pay enough to be second string.  Only certain people have the passion/drive to spend years as the second guy on the ladder knowing you are talented enough to medal at worlds (guys like DT and Dake).  

He’s much smaller than cox and especially Snyder.  Let jden drop to 86 kg with a same day weigh in and you might see a much different match than when he’s spotting him 20 Lbs.  If he even wants to make that cut.

Also- how would you compare Bo’s improvement  over last four years to Snyder’s?

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58 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

He’s much smaller than cox and especially Snyder.  Let jden drop to 86 kg with a same day weigh in and you might see a much different match than when he’s spotting him 20 Lbs.  If he even wants to make that cut.

Also- how would you compare Bo’s improvement  over last four years to Snyder’s?

Bo needs to cut to 86 before you hand him hypothetical advantages over Cox at 86.  Right now Bo's refusal to go his best weight class is a much bigger handicap than Cox's weight cut.

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3 hours ago, pa in taiwan said:

After watching his finals match against the Russian, it has become clear to me that Bo Nickal has the potential to become as dominant in freestyle as he was in NCAA folkstyle. This would require a few commitments. Let me explain. Everyone knows that Bo has incredible hips and a long, lanky (but strong) frame, but the sad truth is that most Americans have zero, nada, zilch to offer on top in par terre. I know that Bo got some turns with the leg lace against Shahbazigazv of Iran, and it appears that he has worked on the lace. He needs to focus on par terre turns from gut wrenches and chest wraps. He's fantastic on his feet, and he really ran Tcakulov down on the low leg attacks. He finishes well from a large arsenal of different attacks from the feet. If he could follow that with the immediate turn, he would become super dangerous. 

I make the observation that if Bo Nickal trained for chest wraps and gut wrenches as hard as he has trained other techniques in the past, he could produce the best top par terre wrestling ever seen by an American. He has the body, the agility, the fluid movement and the strength to pull it off. What he lacks is the training and techniques in turning opponents from the top. 

I was disappointed in watching some Americans who did not even attempt to use a gut wrench or chest wrap into a turn. Yes, it expends a lot of energy, but the bottom guy gets just as drained defending it. I watched Alec Pantaleo in his one-point loss to Ibragimov of AZE at 70kg., and I saw him score a few slick takedowns early. I saw him lock up a gut and then transition to a chest wrap :30 seconds into the match. And then he didn't even ATTEMPT to turn Ibragimov with it. Now Pantaleo is strong. He has great upper body strength, and he should be turning guys with that high chest wrap, which crushes the air out of the opponent's lungs and drains him. One turn would have made the difference in that match. 

 

The hyperbole in this post is off the charts. 

There is zero chance he ever dominates FS like he did NCAA wrestling.  Nickal had a level of NCAA dominance that no FS wrestler ever has had.  It's absurd to suggest.

It's almost as absurd to suggest he could be the best par terre American ever with some training.  He's already 23.  At that age John Smith was taking apart the world and doing a lot of it with a leg lace from par terre that Nickal will never approach.

I really don't understand the need to make an awesome win into the best win ever.  Or to make a super exciting prospect into the best guy on Earth.  Isn't it enough that Nickal just wrecked an age level world tournament?  Can't that be celebrated without declaring him about to be the best ever?

 

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3 hours ago, Cradle1 said:

He’s much smaller than cox and especially Snyder.  Let jden drop to 86 kg with a same day weigh in and you might see a much different match than when he’s spotting him 20 Lbs.  If he even wants to make that cut.

Also- how would you compare Bo’s improvement  over last four years to Snyder’s?

It's much more difficult to improve when you are already a world champ. It's a different type of learning curve. Bo has been great the past four years, but Snyder and Cox have been and for all likelihood will remain on a different level.  I say this thinking that Bo could win a world medal at 86 92 or eventually 97 kg....It's just tough when there are two people who are better and the same age.  Taylor seems likely to wrestle another cycle as well.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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7 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Bo Nickal is 23, J'den Cox is 24, and Kyle Snyder is 23.  That's why Bo is going to MMA.  He might be a senior world medal caliber wrestler right now, but he wouldn't make a world team until DT retires and would never make an olympic team.  I agree that it would be great to have him for depth in years when a top guy gets hurt, but it just doesn't pay enough to be second string.  Only certain people have the passion/drive to spend years as the second guy on the ladder knowing you are talented enough to medal at worlds (guys like DT and Dake).  

If he continued in wrestling I could see Bo beating any of DT, Cox or Snyder, depending on which weight he ultimately chose.

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7 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Bo Nickal is 23, J'den Cox is 24, and Kyle Snyder is 23.  That's why Bo is going to MMA.  He might be a senior world medal caliber wrestler right now, but he wouldn't make a world team until DT retires and would never make an olympic team.  I agree that it would be great to have him for depth in years when a top guy gets hurt, but it just doesn't pay enough to be second string.  Only certain people have the passion/drive to spend years as the second guy on the ladder knowing you are talented enough to medal at worlds (guys like DT and Dake).  

Why can’t Bo make leaps just as Cox did? Bo is less than a year into training freestyle full time and already looks like he’s made a big jump. To just dismiss him from ever being on “Cox level” is just silly imo. I don’t see Bo winning this year but if he decides to give another cycle a go I could definitely see him catching Cox and passing him in the near future. 

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5 hours ago, boconnell said:

The hyperbole in this post is off the charts. 

There is zero chance he ever dominates FS like he did NCAA wrestling.  Nickal had a level of NCAA dominance that no FS wrestler ever has had.  It's absurd to suggest.

It's almost as absurd to suggest he could be the best par terre American ever with some training.  He's already 23.  At that age John Smith was taking apart the world and doing a lot of it with a leg lace from par terre that Nickal will never approach.

I really don't understand the need to make an awesome win into the best win ever.  Or to make a super exciting prospect into the best guy on Earth.  Isn't it enough that Nickal just wrecked an age level world tournament?  Can't that be celebrated without declaring him about to be the best ever?

 

Standing operating procedure around here. When a younger guy gets a big win like this or something, their legacy is practically cemented at that moment. (See Suriano’s win over Colon, where he was suddenly one of the top favorites for the Olympic team there for a couple days). Until they are a top dog that takes a defeat and may or may not medal at worlds/Olympics, then they are on their way out (JB in ‘16). It’s the circle of hype. 

Edited by Lurker

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9 hours ago, pa in taiwan said:

 

I make the observation that if Bo Nickal trained for chest wraps and gut wrenches as hard as he has trained other techniques in the past, he could produce the best top par terre wrestling ever seen by an American. He has the body, the agility, the fluid movement and the strength to pull it off. What he lacks is the training and techniques in turning opponents from the top. 

 

 

Ever hear of John Smith, Zeke Jones, Dave Schultz, Townshend Saunders? (and I know I'm forgetting a bunch)

All pretty good in par terre.

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6 hours ago, Cradle1 said:

Let jden drop to 86 kg with a same day weigh in and you might see a much different match than when he’s spotting him 20 Lbs.

And next time we see this excuse it will be 30 lbs he was spotting J'den.

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Yes, Bo is good. But it is high mid-level good. Not "beat Sadulaev" level good at all.

He is wrestling good upper mid level guys at the U23 tournament. Cox and Snyder are wrestling the top guys in the world in the open class.

A big difference.

Bo can get better but his MMA stuff will get in the way.

Because of that it is doubtful he wins a world championship.

 

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2 hours ago, Mokoma said:

If he continued in wrestling I could see Bo beating any of DT, Cox or Snyder, depending on which weight he ultimately chose.

I know I'm new here but this comment is a stretch.  Giving their ages being so close I'm not sure he'd ever touch Cox or Snyder.   

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14 minutes ago, SettleBoys said:

I know I'm new here but this comment is a stretch.  Giving their ages being so close I'm not sure he'd ever touch Cox or Snyder.   

Was he really that far off of Cox?  I don't remember watching that match just after NCAA's and thinking he had no chance.  Give him this full year focusing on freestyle only and he has a legitimate chance.  

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There are a lot of "absolutists" right now on this board, on how Bo WILL become great, or can NEVER make the team with the current lineup.  Unless you time travel, or have some telepathic precognitive powers, you all sound full of $#!&.  

Bo just won U23's in convincing fashion against a Top 10 Ranked (worldwide) opponent at a weight class where he is undersized.  A few supportive notes here:

* If Bo goes 86kg against a slimmed down version of Cox, I wonder if the outcome remains the same?  Bo will be a more natural weight, whereas Cox will be cutting the hardest he's ever cut. 

* If Bo goes 86kg, trains with DT, he'll have the "familiarity" bit going for him (as well as DT).  This makes this match incredibly close most likely, and a simple mistake could get him by DT (and vice versa).  And, DT's injury (which we really do not know the extent of) may hurt him in a razor thin matchup with anyone.

* If Bo goes up against Zahid:  Ringer took him out most recently at 79kg, out horsing him significantly.  Bo has even more horsepower, and is just as long/lanky/leveraged as Zahid.  I could absolutely see Bo defeating Zahid soundly.

* If Bo goes up against Ringer:  Ringer will be undersized significantly, and whatever horsepower Ringer brings will be nullified by Bo's own horsepower, as well as his sky-high wrestling IQ and creativeness.

* If Bo moves to 97kg, (only 8 weeks away, or less?), then he will be EXTREMELY undersized, and will be giving up a much more significant amount of horsepower to Gadsen, Snyder, etc.  I honestly see him #2 on the 97kg ladder, given his current performances, with the ability to definiteley beat Gadsen.  He's already beat Zillmer.  

I am NOT suggesting any of these as absolutes, AT ALL.  However, I see the path at 86kg to be difficult, but favoring Bo in various regards.  

Unless Bo pulls the same move he did against Kollin Moore on Snyder (he'd have to do it twice), I don't see him beating Snyder at 97kg.  Just too small.  Bo has now had his hands on a 92kg version of Cox, and an 86kg version of Cox may allow Bo to pull out his bag of tricks.

Do be absolutists... think of possibilities.  :-)

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16 minutes ago, SettleBoys said:

I know I'm new here but this comment is a stretch.  Giving their ages being so close I'm not sure he'd ever touch Cox or Snyder.   

Uh because cox had a 20 something pound advantage and been doing nothing but training freestyle for like 3 4 years straight and bo nickel just started training full time and lost 5-0 and 4-2 to cox so I think anyone could see there is absolute room for Bo to continue to improve and close the gap, I do not think it’s a sure thing but I wouldn’t doubt that guy if he decides to go another Olympic cycle 

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1 hour ago, WillieBoy said:

Yes, Bo is good. But it is high mid-level good. Not "beat Sadulaev" level good at all.

He is wrestling good upper mid level guys at the U23 tournament. Cox and Snyder are wrestling the top guys in the world in the open class.

A big difference.

Bo can get better but his MMA stuff will get in the way.

Because of that it is doubtful he wins a world championship.

 

As far as I can tell the Russian bo teched was in the conversation to be Russia’s rep the last two years....

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51 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

There are a lot of "absolutists" right now on this board, on how Bo WILL become great, or can NEVER make the team with the current lineup. 

Unfortunately this is how all message boards work...   Someone makes a statement, the people on the other side take it as an absolute and make a counter statement where the other side does the same.  They then spend 1987987 posts going back and forth where they

1)  Constantly clarify/revise until they meet in the middle or

2) Just get further apart out of a stubborness to cling to being "right"

It's a vicious circle!

 

Edited by Gantry

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Over the years I have seen so many posts that Wrestler A has zero shot at beating Wrestler B, and then Wrestler A proceeds to get the win.  With a guy who is improving so fast, I think its a bit short sighted to say there is no way he could be our best guy in a few years.

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31 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

As far as I can tell the Russian bo teched was in the conversation to be Russia’s rep the last two years....

He was the Russian rep at worlds in 2018 - He lost to Karimi (Iran) in the Quarterfinals 12-0,  who then lost to Cox 5-2 in the Semis, so he (the Russian) did not get into Repartage.  Karimi was probably the 2nd best guy at that weight.  Karimi also beat Sharifov (Azerb) in that tournament 7-0.  He is the guy who knocked Snyder off this year.

Edited by lu1979

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