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Spencer Lee in Tokyo

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I’m not trying to take sides or anything, but BTS and practice matches are obviously not the same. Technically, nothing Hamilton said about that match is wrong. Jason Nolf lost a match to the Rutgers kid last year. That was the only way he was ever going to lose that match, and it was incredibly unfortunate, but he has one more L in his official NCAA record as a result. DT too has an official loss due to injury default. 

In tune with your not trying to take sides as well, but is that accurate?  Are the BTS matches part of these athletes official UWW w/l records?

Edited by Lurker

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3 hours ago, MDogg said:

“Taylor lost a match to a competitor...” hahaha. That’s the single most preposterous take I've seen on these message boards. He tore his ACL during an exhibition match at a charity event and did not continue...because it was meaningless. Did Dake “lose” to Max Dean when he tore his ACL while they were going live in practice and couldn’t continue? Practice and BTS matches count the same.

So in your mind Drew Foster owns a win over David Taylor in a freestyle wrestling match and can go around and tell people that with a straight face? 

I guess you didn't block me?

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8 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

And if he loses then it will be because he is obviously not 100% (see this past year's losses). 

 

8 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Yes, those losses were because, as you state, it was obvious something wasn't right with him. I have heard this has been the case in every loss he has had since about age 11. 

 

5 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

How did I make an excuse when DT suffered a torn acl? How does a torn acl even require an excuse? Your claim here is at the same time both totally inaccurate and completely preposterous. 

So an ACL is a legit excuse for Taylor, but not for Lee (DeSanto match, matches during college campaign where he was wearing a brace)

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10 hours ago, AHamilton said:

"most of the time?"

What I mean is, he's looked beatable compared to wrestlers on a world class level, not compared to NCAA Competition.  It's hard to imagine the guy who we saw trying to survive the third period all year beating Fix or Gilman.  FWIW, I'd love to see him get back to the Spencer Lee of 2018 NCAAs.  That guy could make the team.  I have no idea if illness was a factor last year and would love to see him return to form. 

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2 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

What I mean is, he's looked beatable compared to wrestlers on a world class level, not compared to NCAA Competition.  It's hard to imagine the guy who we saw trying to survive the third period all year beating Fix or Gilman.  FWIW, I'd love to see him get back to the Spencer Lee of 2018 NCAAs.  That guy could make the team.  I have no idea if illness was a factor last year and would love to see him return to form. 

OK.  Thanks for the clarification.  Makes more sense now.

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1 hour ago, AHamilton said:

Apparently, a lot of people miss the point.  I love DT as a wrestler.  The point is that someone like TBar will say that Lee's torn ACL is an "excuse" but is ok letting Taylor's torn ACL slide, all in the same thread BTW.

Nope. I was probably the first guy on this forum in the Free the Lee club. The back tear was given wide latitude.

The only snark I throw out is at Iowa fans who made continual excuses is 2019, long after the ACL was all healed up.

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1 hour ago, AHamilton said:

So an ACL is a legit excuse for Taylor, but not for Lee (DeSanto match, matches during college campaign where he was wearing a brace)

An ACL tear is an injury. Taylor didn't need an excuse to stop wrestling since his injury was good reason.

Lee's ACL tear is the exact same thing. Never suggested otherwise. He chose to wrestle Desanto. Did his health play a part, sure. 

What does Lee's h.s. injury have to do with Lee 2019? Don't take my age 11 comment literally. When I wrote that I had quite literally forgotten he lost to Desanto. 

Edited by TBar1977

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19 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

An ACL tear is an injury. Taylor didn't need an excuse to stop wrestling since his injury was good reason.

Lee's ACL tear is the exact same thing. Never suggested otherwise. He chose to wrestle Desanto. Did his health play a part, sure. 

What does Lee's h.s. injury have to do with Lee 2019? Don't take my age 11 comment literally. When I wrote that I had quite literally forgotten he lost to Desanto. 

How am I supposed to know you forgot about literally one of the biggest high school upsets in history?  And if your memory decided to work all of a sudden, you would remember that many people on this board were critical when it came out that Lee had an ACL tear and was "using an excuse."

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Somehow this Spencer Lee thread turned into a DT thread.  So I will respond with a DT comment :-)

 

I don't think you can compare the DT situation with that of LEE or Yianni.  I think there are completely different variables involved. 

First just the difference between freestyle and folk.  In freestyle you are not turning someone with a gut or a lace at a world class level with an ACL tear.  You are also going to have a hard time defending one.  Especially if someone locks up a leg lace.  

Also, you are talking about multiple matches in a row against the top guys in the world.  Not getting through a match or two with someone who is at your level in the U.S; especially considering the fact that Lee and Yianni are world class level and the only guys respectively at their level were McKenna and Fix at the time. 

In college, you might as well try to finish out the season if you are so far in that it will count toward your eligibility anyway.  You also have a full 9-10 months before you compete again (2nd Semester).  On top of that you can work yourself back into shape by selective competition for a another couple months till the NCAA qualifying  tournament.  Giving a person close to a year to recover. 

 In DT's case, it would have resulted in waiting for several months until the worlds training with caution.  You can't exactly walk into the world tournament half ready.  Yes JB did it with his foot injury, but he had been train hard up to 3-weeks prior.  There is also a difference between a healing foot, and a non existent ACL.  It also would have meant he would have had to have surgery right after worlds and only had about what, 8-9 months before the trials, where it is going to be a very deep field of world class guys with the weight consolidation (potentially Cox, Hall, Valencia, Ringer).  During an Olympic year no less that only comes around every 4-years and he may not have another cycle in him.  

So I think there a many reasons why an argument that Yianni or Lee wrestling the NCAA with a tore ACL versus DT choosing to forgo worlds to be more healed before the Olympic cycle are very different scenarios due to the differences in variables of their situation. 

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29 minutes ago, scramble said:

Somehow this Spencer Lee thread turned into a DT thread.  So I will respond with a DT comment :-)

 

I don't think you can compare the DT situation with that of LEE or Yianni.  I think there are completely different variables involved. 

First just the difference between freestyle and folk.  In freestyle you are not turning someone with a gut or a lace at a world class level with an ACL tear.  You are also going to have a hard time defending one.  Especially if someone locks up a leg lace.  

Also, you are talking about multiple matches in a row against the top guys in the world.  Not getting through a match or two with someone who is at your level in the U.S; especially considering the fact that Lee and Yianni are world class level and the only guys respectively at their level were McKenna and Fix at the time. 

In college, you might as well try to finish out the season if you are so far in that it will count toward your eligibility anyway.  You also have a full 9-10 months before you compete again (2nd Semester).  On top of that you can work yourself back into shape by selective competition for a another couple months till the NCAA qualifying  tournament.  Giving a person close to a year to recover. 

 In DT's case, it would have resulted in waiting for several months until the worlds training with caution.  You can't exactly walk into the world tournament half ready.  Yes JB did it with his foot injury, but he had been train hard up to 3-weeks prior.  There is also a difference between a healing foot, and a non existent ACL.  It also would have meant he would have had to have surgery right after worlds and only had about what, 8-9 months before the trials, where it is going to be a very deep field of world class guys with the weight consolidation (potentially Cox, Hall, Valencia, Ringer).  During an Olympic year no less that only comes around every 4-years and he may not have another cycle in him.  

So I think there a many reasons why an argument that Yianni or Lee wrestling the NCAA with a tore ACL versus DT choosing to forgo worlds to be more healed before the Olympic cycle are very different scenarios due to the differences in variables of their situation. 

Well said, but I think you missed the point:

We are talking about people who trash Lee for "excuses" but will gladly make an excuse for DT (or Nolf.)  

Much of it has to do with what college team Lee represents.

 

And what about Kirkvliet's ACL?

Edited by AHamilton

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2 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Well said, but I think you missed the point:

We are talking about people who trash Lee for "excuses" but will gladly make an excuse for DT (or Nolf.)  

 

You are missing the point, or perhaps making one up out of thin air. DT suffering an ACL tear isn't "an excuse for losing a match". Its an injury. DT did not lose a match that night, regardless of how records are kept. He was injured, then he stopped wrestling because it was the smart thing to do. You can't possibly claim he was otherwise going to lose that evening. 

No one made any excuses for Taylor that night. He didn't need any. 

And again, I don't hold Lee's DeSanto loss against him. I do recall others doing so. It's comical they have him on such a high pedestal they can't envision him losing. So I do find funny all the excuse making by Iowa fans after Bresser, then after NaTo, then 2x after Rivera and once more after Picc. Its become a recurring bad habit. 

Lee is a GREAT wrestler, Iowa fans don't need to make excuses for him.

 

Edited by TBar1977

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Whoa - isn't this supposed to be about Spencer Lee? Let's get this back to the topic. Lee looked like a world-beater in his jr. days. Is he a better freestyler than folk? A few years ago it looked like the USA was looking good at the light weights. Yianni has a huge future at a weight that we haven't seen medals at in a while. How about lightweight?

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8 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

 

And again, I don't hold Lee's DeSanto loss against him. I do recall others doing so. It's comical they have him on such a high pedestal they can't envision him losing. So I do find funny all the excuse making by Iowa fans after Bresser then after NaTo, , tthen 2x after Rivera and once more after Picc. Its become a recurring bad habit. 

Lee is a GREAT wrestler, Iowa fans don't need to make excuses for him.

 

He was coming back from an ACL!!! Get ready for Taylor to try to do the same...

 

Get the point?

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3 hours ago, misanthrope said:

Whoa - isn't this supposed to be about Spencer Lee? Let's get this back to the topic. Lee looked like a world-beater in his jr. days. Is he a better freestyler than folk? A few years ago it looked like the USA was looking good at the light weights. Yianni has a huge future at a weight that we haven't seen medals at in a while. How about lightweight?

I believe that he is supposed to be better at freestyle than folk.

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15 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Still making that comeback in 2019?

 

9 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

 

And again, I don't hold Lee's DeSanto loss against him. I do recall others doing so. It's comical they have him on such a high pedestal they can't envision him losing. So I do find funny all the excuse making by Iowa fans after Bresser, then after NaTo, then 2x after Rivera and once more after Picc. Its become a recurring bad habit. 

 

 

??

 

Get your excuses ready for 2019-2020

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Just now, AHamilton said:

 

??

 

Get your excuses ready for 2019-2020

Geez, you are dense. The excuse making this year, 2019, went something like this:

"there is something obviously wrong with him" 

"It's obvious he isn't 100 percent"

The word "obvious" is what caused my initial response because that wss the word so oft used to excuse losses in 2019. 

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