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So whats the line? 1 coach spreading antivaxxer stuff? 5? How many should I be cool with and look the other way? Also just because no one has died yet directly from it doesnt mean its not wrong.  
The whold discussion was based on him as a role model to his athletes. This is a flaw to his character. You are now trying to deny that its a responsibility of his and he has no influence on athletes of college age?
How is bring an anti big pharma forced vaccines a flaw in someone's character?

Do you feel the same way for all the undocumented illegals, Hacidic Jews, and the Amish who aren't vaccinated?

Bad, bad people. Shame on them!

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

So whats the line? 1 coach spreading antivaxxer stuff? 5? How many should I be cool with and look the other way? Also just because no one has died yet directly from it doesnt mean its not wrong.  

The whold discussion was based on him as a role model to his athletes. This is a flaw to his character. You are now trying to deny that its a responsibility of his and he has no influence on athletes of college age?

In your opinion this is a flaw to his character, or it’s a documented fact?  Just want to make sure what we’re talking about here. Cuz you’re speaking as if it were fact. 

And what am I trying to deny is a responsibility of his? Vaccines or lack there of?  You lost me on that one, not sure what responsibility of his I’m denying.  

Edited by Lurker

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39 minutes ago, Lurker said:

In your opinion this is a flaw to his character, or it’s a documented fact?  Just want to make sure what we’re talking about here. Cuz you’re speaking as if it were fact. 

And what am I trying to deny is a responsibility of his? Vaccines or lack there of?  You lost me on that one, not sure what responsibility of his I’m denying.  

The responsibility he has as someone with influence over college kids. You suggested that he actually has no influence. 

If what was fact? Vaccines save lives and is a good thing? Uh oh...

 

Edited by russelscout

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48 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

How is bring an anti big pharma forced vaccines a flaw in someone's character?

Do you feel the same way for all the undocumented illegals, Hacidic Jews, and the Amish who aren't vaccinated?

Bad, bad people. Shame on them!

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk
 

I do feel that is a flaw to their character yes. Then again, i dont believe in sidestepping science to listen to the imaginary man in the sky. If you really think vaccines are a ploy of big pharma, Im worried you also have fallen victim to this same flaw; feelings over facts 

 

Edited by russelscout

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7 minutes ago, russelscout said:

The responsibility he has as someone with influence over college kids. You suggested that he actually has none. 

If what was fact? Vaccines save lives and is a good thing? Uh oh...

 

A) I suggested no such thing. Be genuine or move on, don’t twist things around. 

2) back to topic. 

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7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

A) I suggested no such thing. Be genuine or move on, don’t twist things around. 

2) back to topic. 

You said you didnt think he had influence over 19-24 years olds... what am I missing here? 

And honestly, this is on topic. The topics change all the time and in this case it devolved to the point where you were adamantly defending an anti vaxxer, who is also a state employee who pushed dangerous rhetoric on his social media. If you dont like that discussion, you shouldnt have gone there.

Edited by russelscout

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10 minutes ago, russelscout said:

You said you didnt think he had influence over 19-24 years olds... what am I missing here? 

And honestly, this is on topic. The topics change all the time and in this case it devolved to the point where you were adamantly defending a anti vaxxer, who is also a state employee who pushed dangerous rhetoric on his social media. If you dont like that discussion, you shouldnt have gone there.

You’re not missing anything. You’re just twisting to fit your narrative.....again. If you can show where I said “I don’t think he has influence over 19-24 year olds” I will say I’m wrong. But I didn’t. I said I didn’t realize he had that type of impact, as it relates to the vaccinations of 19-24 year olds which is obvious since it was in direct response. 

And it’s not so much defending Tom Ryan as it is calling you out for thinking a difference of opinion from yours is a character flaw, and the most important aspect of judging their character. 

Bye Felecia. Back to topic. 

Edited by Lurker

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2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

And it’s not so much defending Tom Ryan as it is calling you out for thinking a difference of opinion from yours is a character flaw, and the most important aspect of judging their character. 

Whether vaccines have a positive impact really isnt a debate over opinion is it?

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Most likely (and obvious) scenario is he spent a couple weeks with Sanderson and Bo, and reminded that his training partners are Singletary and Martin, but there’s a room with Bo, Varner, Snyder, Taylor, Cassar, a few other guys with NCAA and age group world titles. 

And nobody can blame him. Yeah a lot of commits and decommitts, and I get where that can rub people the wrong way, but this is the most important and impactful five years of their competitive career, go with what you feel gives you the best shot. These kids go for the people that are there. And the most consistent thing about those positions is their fluidity. So if things change, whether it be the circumstances or your gut feeling, go with it. 

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11 hours ago, Sstern said:

This is just goofy, as are many of your comments in this thread.  In others you have made much better arguments.

Two things on the religion issue:  from a Constitutional standpoint, you don’t understand that it doesn’t preclude religion in state sponsored activities.  I will stop there because I don’t have time to explain it all.  Second, maybe a lot of wrestlers have religion as their priority and until Liberty or Notre Dame come back as powerhouses Ryan’s personal story, a great one if you ever listen, is appealing.

You must not be a TOSU fan as you also fail to recognize history.  TOSU was in no mans land before Ryan.  He WAS the top up and coming coach.  He did great things at Hofstra.  He has created a fantastic winning culture at TOSU.  J has also been very important.  Ryan has repeatedly shown gratitude for what he and Stieber have meant to the success.

Another sign of a good coach is creating good opportunities for assistants, as was done with Lou.  I would love to have Lou back but it isn’t like he was the only good coach because he surely hasn’t turned OK around like Ryan did at TOSU.

It will be interesting to see what Kyle does after being at NLWC.  I was impressed at what Nickel did at U23 and he is wrestling a style different than what he did in college.  Very Cael like now.  Can that coaching translate to Kyle?  Tervel was great for Kyle per Kyle.  I think this will actually backfire on him but hope it doesn’t.

TOSU is in a great spot with Ryan.  Other than Cael, I wouldn’t want any other coach.

Sstern,

Thanks for the reply.  I understand what the Constitution means.  You may interpret it a different way, but it is clear on the separation of church and state.  Simply put, if you are using tax payer dollars (like tOSU) you should not be promoting a religion.  Ryan does this, you can wiggle your argument however you want, but he does.   I wrestled for a D1 school and we had a coach that promoted the stuff Ryan does.  Funny that this coach eventually matriculated to Liberty University, but it divided the team.  Like it or not, it is what happens.  Going back to my point, it limits recruiting.  

I am a tOSU fan in that I am a fan of Ohio wrestlers, (funny, same as questioning someone's patriotism). I am proud of Ohio wrestling and and the guys we produce.  tOSU should take the best of the best regardless of their "living the right way" stuff.   History, funny, tell that to JJ, Rex Holman and many more.  Ryan took over when tOSU decided to heavily fund wrestling.  tOSU has some funds to spend and Ryan was in a great place at the right time.  Was he the only one who could have done what he did?  I doubt it.  If I recall, when they hired Ryan, the pool of candidates was limited. 

Another good sign???  You are saying Ryan was Lou's mentor?  HAHAHA!  He did not create an opportunity for Lou, Lou created that for himself.  tOSU results have tapered way off since Lou's departure.  Lou will turn OK around and it is already happening.  Cupboard was empty when he got there.  So you are saying that Ryan is the better coach than Lou (he might be, I am just asking your opinion here)? 

Trevel was great for Snyder?  Ok, show me the results and the results of the other guys he is coaching.  Since 2017 Snyder has not been improving.  If he was so great for Snyder, why did Snyder leave?  Why did Kerk leave?  Why was Martin one and none? Who has Trevel made better?  Yes they sync on the religion stuff, but did he make Snyder better than he was before? 

Finally, who has Ryan developed?

Edited by jeffrideal

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There are two idiot trolls on this thread who feel compelled to insult Tom Ryan for his beliefs and for his coaching abilities.

Two gutless little kids who feel free to type away, but would never have the stuff to come up to any of Tom's wrestlers and ask them what they think of their coach.

Let alone, Tom himself.

The first troll is merely ignorant, and the second one, who is posting  away every 5 minutes about anti-vax and other bs, makes the first one look like a Fulbright Scholar.

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3 minutes ago, TheOhioState said:

There are two idiot trolls on this thread who feel compelled to insult Tom Ryan for his beliefs and for his coaching abilities.

Two gutless little kids who feel free to type away, but would never have the stuff to come up to any of Tom's wrestlers and ask them what they think of their coach.

Let alone, Tom himself.

The first troll is merely ignorant, and the second one, who is posting  away every 5 minutes about anti-vax and other bs, makes the first one look like a Fulbright Scholar.

Wow, you sound like Hitler or Pol Pot here.  Why are you afraid to have a conversation about this?  Engage like I have.  I have answered everyone of your points in detail.  Why name call?  You have no substance, but please continue to puff your chest. 

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1 minute ago, jeffrideal said:

Wow, you sound like Hitler or Pol Pot here.  Why are you afraid to have a conversation about this?  Engage like I have.  I have answered everyone of your points in detail.  Why name call?  You have no substance, but please continue to puff your chest. 

You're not going to cry, are you?

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16 minutes ago, TheOhioState said:

You're not going to cry, are you?

No, why?  Typical, cannot engage in a conversation.  Keep on with your one-liners though... they are getting tiresome. 

Edited by jeffrideal

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1 hour ago, TheOhioState said:

The first troll is merely ignorant, and the second one, who is posting  away every 5 minutes about anti-vax and other bs, makes the first one look like a Fulbright Scholar.

Classic. You attack the person and not the arguement when you dont have a leg to stand on. 

1 hour ago, TheOhioState said:

Two gutless little kids who feel free to type away, but would never have the stuff to come up to any of Tom's wrestlers and ask them what they think of their coach.

Let alone, Tom himself.

So? That doesnt mean that I am wrong. It just means Im not starting a convo with a stranger like that... does this comment really have a point or are you just desperately reaching for something to run with now?

1 hour ago, TheOhioState said:

There are two idiot trolls on this thread who feel compelled to insult Tom Ryan for his beliefs and for his coaching abilities.

That one belief could possible have an affect on everyone else in a negative way. I think it is actually irresponsible to not call out antivaxxers for their error in thinking. The idea that we need to give credence to every belief and we all need to just let it slide is extremely short sided and frankly dangerous. Try to look beyond the surface level of things and you just might get it. However, it doesnt seem like you are capable of any more than calling people stupid and avoiding an actual discussion at all costs.

Now instead of name calling, prove me wrong. Convince me of why I should be super psyched that Tom Ryan is openly pushing antivaxxer B.S. Otherwise move along. I was out on this convo and you were the one who just couldnt handle that people said something negative about Tom Ryan; same with Lurker. You try to discredit me for saying something every 5 minutes, but Im not talking to myself here!

Edited by russelscout

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There isn't a debate about vaccines.  There is no empirical data that shows anything other then vaccines are hugely important to health of society.  Anybody who says otherwise, I have a problem with, because they are contributing to the endangerment of children from easily preventable diseases. There aren't two sides to every question.  That doesn't mean Tom Ryan is an awful human, but he is sadly misinformed and in a position to do more damage then most if he truly believes anti-vax stuff.

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So to summarize this thread, I'm pretty sure we can agree on the following:

1.  Tom Ryan believes in some crazy $#@!, such as evolution not being real and vaccines causing autism.  He obviously is wrong, based on science.

2.  There is no evidence that these beliefs have negatively impacted the results of his team.  Except for potentially the flu contributing to Logan Stieber's loss to Zain Retherford, a flu that may not have happened if Ryan encouraged his athletes to get the flu vaccine.  Of course, that depends on the strain of flu that Stieber was infected with and whether it was covered by the flu vaccine that year.  Other than this one match though, I don't think there have been any negative effects on his athletes, and he has had great success as a coach.

3.  Tom Ryan is the second best coach in the NCAA over the past 9 years based on results.  

4.  Kyle Snyder left Ohio State, possibly due to not getting the results at worlds that he would have hoped for and blaming the Ohio RTC with Tervel as his coach, possibly due to better training partners at PSU, or possibly due to a huge boatload of money being offered by PSU to basically guarantee them an olympian and in doing so damage the second best NCAA program. 

5.  Kerkvliet came to Ohio State to wrestle with Snyder, a surprise to some in this thread who apparently thought  it was for the great aerospace engineering program there. Now that Snyder is gone, so too is Kerkvliett, to the dismay of those who hoped he would remain and train with Kollin Moore and Singletary. 

6.  Ohio State has basically no chance of beating PSU in the next couple of years, but will still probably be the second best NCAA program overall.  Tom Ryan isn't going to get fired because this is about as good as Ohio State can hope to be until the new NCAA rules kick and and boosters can start paying athletes directly. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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17 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

There isn't a debate about vaccines.  There is no empirical data that shows anything other then vaccines are hugely important to health of society.  Anybody who says otherwise, I have a problem with, because they are contributing to the endangerment of children from easily preventable diseases. There aren't two sides to every question.  That doesn't mean Tom Ryan is an awful human, but he is sadly misinformed and in a position to do more damage then most if he truly believes anti-vax stuff.

I'm not here to debate anything about vaccines and I do NOT believe the misinformation commonly associated with vaccines and autism. I'm going to throw out something that might (and I emphasize might- I've never talked to Ryan about this so could be completely off base here) add to understanding Tom's pov here. His young son Teague died of what was found to be a heart attack likely based on a Long Q-T syndrome that was found to be carried genetically by Tom's wife. I don't see any data in a quick search that would rule out vaccines here but there are certain drugs counter-indicated so who knows whether Tom's opinion grew out of this tragedy? His religious emphasis definitely did.

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6 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I'm not here to debate anything about vaccines and I do NOT believe the misinformation commonly associated with vaccines and autism. I'm going to throw out something that might (and I emphasize might- I've never talked to Ryan about this so could be completely off base here) add to understanding Tom's pov here. His young son Teague died of what was found to be a heart attack likely based on a Long Q-T syndrome that was found to be carried genetically by Tom's wife. I don't see any data in a quick search that would rule out vaccines here but there are certain drugs counter-indicated so who knows whether Tom's opinion grew out of this tragedy? His religious emphasis definitely did.

Honestly I have no idea.  And I could totally see how something so awful could screw with somebody's perspective.  I don't care that he's religious, most of the big time coaches are.  Regardless, though, if he's spreading antivax rhetoric, he's in a more powerful position then most with the ability to influence groups of young people who look to him as some sort of parental figure.  It doesn't inform any question I have about him as a wrestling coach, though I would be wary of sending my son there if I learned that.  But for others, it probably would affect them not at all.

Off track now, sorry.  Tom Ryan is a fine wrestling coach, but there are other....extracurriculars that cause me to have a problem, regardless for what caused those beliefs to metastasize.  I have great sympathy for him and his family losing a young child, but, for me, the doesn't alleviate what he's saying (again, if he's saying it.  I don't go on his Twitter feed or anything, but nobody seems to be denying it so I'm going with it.)

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5 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Honestly I have no idea.  And I could totally see how something so awful could screw with somebody's perspective.  I don't care that he's religious, most of the big time coaches are.  Regardless, though, if he's spreading antivax rhetoric, he's in a more powerful position then most with the ability to influence groups of young people who look to him as some sort of parental figure.  It doesn't inform any question I have about him as a wrestling coach, though I would be wary of sending my son there if I learned that.  But for others, it probably would affect them not at all.

Taking medical advice from a wrestling coach.....About as logical as taking wrestling advice from a physician.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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