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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Taking medical advice from a wrestling coach.....About as logical as taking wrestling advice from a physician.  

That's like saying children shouldn't take advice from their father on medicine.  It may or may not be true, depending on the father, but it isn't going to stop anyone.  Coaches have a hugely impactful role in most athletes lives.

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7 hours ago, VakAttack said:

There isn't a debate about vaccines.  There is no empirical data that shows anything other then vaccines are hugely important to health of society.  Anybody who says otherwise, I have a problem with, because they are contributing to the endangerment of children from easily preventable diseases. There aren't two sides to every question.  That doesn't mean Tom Ryan is an awful human, but he is sadly misinformed and in a position to do more damage then most if he truly believes anti-vax stuff.

I actually am aware of a child who died from a vaccination.  Outliers happen, as do allergic reactions to bee stings sometimes causing death.  How one reacts to them is another.

All my children have had all there vaccinations, as I agree the benefits far outweigh any potential risks.

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On 11/3/2019 at 12:45 AM, russelscout said:

He developed an Olympic champ? Snyder won the worlds his true freshman year after spending a year in the OTC before, and hasnt been able to remain at the top since Lou left. People that develop better? Brands, Pat Pop, John Smith. 

Brands???  Who has he developed?   Thankfully the Pa. guys come ready to rock.  Lucky for Iowa that Spencer is a special talent and former World Champion whose style has not changed since leaving Pa.  What reason is there that he has not entered international tournaments, enjoyed success, and taken the steps to be an Olympian except for the Brands' selfishness.   Brands has subjugated Spencer's International success for his personal gain. 

John Smith?  Sorry to say but his results, considering his recruits, indicate his days at the top are over.  His go to move went from low single to hounding the refs for a penalty point. 

PSU is a juggernaut.  Pull them from the equation and no one approaches Ryan in the last 5 years of NCAAW. 

 

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1 hour ago, TFBJR said:

What reason is there that he has not entered international tournaments, enjoyed success, and taken the steps to be an Olympian except for the Brands' selfishness. 

Do you actually believe this? If Lee wanted to do something, Brands would most certainly allow him to. Thats ridiculous to even suggest Brands selfishness is the issue here.

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

If Lee finishes 2nd or 3rd at Trials, then I wonder if he'll have any regrets. 

How do you think he would have felt if he had an injury in the last two years and wouldnt have been able to even go this year at all? He had two surgeries in high school. You really dont see any reason to take precautions with Lee? 

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Just now, russelscout said:

Do you actually believe this? If Lee wanted to do something, Brands would most certainly allow him to. Thats ridiculous to even suggest Brands selfishness is the issue here.

I believe it 100%  Coaches have great control over their youthful athletes.  Based on this 10 page thread centering on undue influence re: vaccines and religion I am certain that you agree.  What other Junior World champs have stated publicly their goal is to being an international wrestler and would trade all national championships for Olympic glory have entered exactly zero qualifying tournaments?  What peer wrestlers (Fix Micic, ...) are not taking an Oly red shirt this year?  When you read Spencer's own words he accentuates trying to do both - Olympic trials and helping the team win a championship this year.  A collegiate victory only serves his mentor.   Mr. Lee can stop the clock and come back next year for NCAA glory. 

I believe that without Spencer's successes the last 2 years both Brands would be gone from Iowa. 

Of course I could be mistaken :)   

 

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24 minutes ago, russelscout said:

How do you think he would have felt if he had an injury in the last two years and wouldnt have been able to even go this year at all? He had two surgeries in high school. You really dont see any reason to take precautions with Lee? 

My point has nothing to do with the past two collegiate years, but rather this upcoming one. He is either healthy or he is not. Which is it?  Do you think they are taking precautions with Lee this year? Sounds like you actually believe he needs precautions, like he is still injured.  What evidence exists that shows he is in fact injured? 

Edited by TBar1977

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10 minutes ago, TFBJR said:

When you read Spencer's own words he accentuates trying to do both - Olympic trials and helping the team win a championship this year.  A collegiate victory only serves his mentor.

You don't think its possible that Lee wants to win a team title?

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8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Do you think they are taking precautions with Lee this year? Do you think he is still injured? What evidence exists that shows he is in fact injured? 

Have you seen any evidence to suggest that narrative you and @TFBJR are trying to create? Any reason to believe that Lee is being held back against his wishes in any way at all? An interview, tweet, insta post? Anything?

He has been continually complimentary of the coaches and the program the entire time he has been there. It appears that you are pulling it out of your ass.

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7 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Have you seen any evidence to suggest that narrative you and @TFBJR are trying to create? Any reason to believe that Lee is being held back against his wishes in any way at all? An interview, tweet, insta post? Anything?

He has been continually complimentary of the coaches and the program the entire time he has been there. It appears that you are pulling it out of your ass.

At Iowa's Media Day he said he was going to wrestle when they tell him to wrestle. That shows the coaches do have influence.

But back to my question, why do you even use the phrase "taking precautions" with Spencer Lee as we enter the 2019-2020 season? Their Media Day suggests the whole team is built around Spencer Lee, but the phrase you are using, "taking precautions" suggests he's brittle or otherwise remains injured. He ain't that soft, so why would you put that on him? 

Edited by TBar1977

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19 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

At Iowa's Media Day he said he was going to wrestle when they tell him to wrestle. That shows the coaches do have influence.

Great, did he say he HAS to wrestle only when the coaches say so. Before it seemed like you were both arguing that this was against Spencer's will. Now it seems like he is choosing to approach it this way and you guys don't think its the best route for whatever reason. 

 

19 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

But back to my question, why do you even use the phrase "taking precautions" with Spencer Lee as we enter the 2019-2020 season? Their Media Day suggests the whole team is built around Spencer Lee, but the phrase you are using, "taking precautions" suggests he's brittle. Why would you put that on him? 

I didn't say that he needed to take precautions this upcoming year did I? Please quote where I said that. If I had a wrestler who came into college with a torn ACL, I certainly wouldn't have been forcing him to get as much mat time as possible his freshman year. This last year it was expected that he would wrestle at some point and Lee and the coaches said as much, but it didn't happen. Neither you nor I have a clue why he did not, but you are speculating that he didn't wrestle because of a coaches selfish reasons? Based on the evidence, it would seem more likely that him taking time off as precautionary or any other random reason that comes up in the course of a year more than for just coaches reasons. Why would other Hawkeyes been able to wrestle free and not Spencer? 

Edited by russelscout

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30 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Great, did he say he HAS to wrestle only when the coaches say so. Before it seemed like you were both arguing that this was against Spencer's will. Now it seems like he is choosing to approach it this way and you guys don't think its the best route for whatever reason. 

Never once argued anything was against his will. If you think I did that, then link it. It never happened. I just posed a question. "If he finishes 2nd or 3rd, will he have any regrets"? Seems like a reasonable question. The others are putting al;l their emphasis on freestyle while Spencer is putting most of the emphasis on folkstyle. Sure you can see this is the case. So how is that question unreasonable? 

 

I didn't say that he needed to take precautions this upcoming year did I? Please quote where I said that. If I had a wrestler who came into college with a torn ACL, I certainly wouldn't have been forcing him to get as much mat time as possible his freshman year. This last year it was expected that he would wrestle at some point and Lee and the coaches said as much, but it didn't happen. Neither you nor I have a clue why he did not, but you are speculating that he didn't wrestle because of a coaches selfish reasons? Based on the evidence, it would seem more likely that him taking time off as precautionary or any other random reason that comes up in the course of a year more than for just coaches reasons. Why would other Hawkeyes been able to wrestle free and not Spencer? 

First off, the conversation is about right here, right now. This year. Not what happened two years ago. Only you brought that time frame into the convo and only you know why you did so or how that is even relevant to this year. But regardless, your exact words used are these

Quote: You really dont see any reason to take precautions with Lee?   

That is in the present tense. So again, I ask for the fourth time. Why would you use those words as we enter this season?

Your comments about prior years have no connection to this year. Not imo anyway. That's just a deflection. 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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28 minutes ago, russelscout said:

So? why is speculating that even relevant at all? 

I mention it in direct refutation of your premise because I think it illustrates that the Brands do NOT develop talent.  Absent Spencer picking Iowa there would be a different Hawkeye coach.  My opinion only.  I feel Brands is pressing his will because he NEEDS to. Out of every coach in D1 he is arguably the most inclined to perpetuate a cult of personality.  In his own words he is proud of being all of these things.  A logical deduction is that he is leveraging Spencer for his selfish advantage.   Lee is very clear as to his priorities.  If they were taking a cautionary approach he would only be pursuing a single style this year, not both.   

"He better be an *******, he better be a dick, he better be selfish, and he better be mean."  Self-description and projection that you have never heard from another D1 wrestling coach of his stature.

Whatever - none of these guys are my personal friends and it is too early to dwell on the negative. 

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8 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Never once argued anything was against his will. If you think I did that, then link it. It never happened. I just posed a question. "If he finishes 2nd or 3rd, will he have any regrets"? Seems like a reasonable question. The others are putting al;l their emphasis on freestyle while Spencer is putting most of the emphasis on folkstyle. Sure you can see this is the case. So how is that question unreasonable? 

Keep in mind, I was addressing both you and TFBJR. I don't believe that question is coming from you in good faith. It appears to me that you are trying to imply that if he did in fact have regrets it is all Brand's fault and therefore he is a bad coach. I could be wrong, but having done this enough times with you Tbar, it isn't hard to figure out your act, but I guess I will play ball. 

He may have regrets, yes. but you do not know that he did not wrestle free at all just because Tom or Terry said he shouldn't. If he got 3rd and had regrets, you don't actually know that it would have been different if he wrestled at every freestyle tournament. You also don't know what other factors could be at play. I think Spencer is the best guy at the weight, but Fix is gotten significantly better over the years, and Gilman is a bad matchup for anyone. 
 

17 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

So again, I ask for the fourth time. Why would you use those words as we enter this season?

Your comments about prior years have no relevence to this year. Not imo anyway. That's just a deflection. 

Because once again I was talking to both you and TFBJR. It seemed to me that you had jumped into the conversation about Lee because the other poster had said this: 
 

3 hours ago, TFBJR said:

hat reason is there that he has not entered international tournaments, enjoyed success, and taken the steps to be an Olympian except for the Brands' selfishness.   Brands has subjugated Spencer's International success for his personal gain.

This comment was definitely about choices made in the past and I thought you were joining in that discussion. I guess you are saying your comment was a non sequitur? It seems strange to me that you would just randomly say that without any reason at all.

However, if he did lose at the trials, wouldn't the regrets you are suggesting he may have be over these choices made in the past? Isn't that what you are trying to get at? You have me all sorts of confused.  If this isn't a discussion about prior years at all, what would your answer to this be:

 

29 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

"If he finishes 2nd or 3rd, will he have any regrets"?

 

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russellscout, I only asked if he'd have regrets. That question seemed reasonable given that Fix, Gilman and everyone else in the 57Kg conversation is concentrating 100% on freestyle. Except Spencer Lee. Pretty clear you can't have a reasonable discussion without dreaming up all sorts of things that were never brought into play. Too bad, russellscout. 

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17 minutes ago, TFBJR said:

I mention it in direct refutation of your premise because I think it illustrates that the Brands do NOT develop talent. By presenting a hypothetical that you can't prove or disprove? Sweet opinion bro, its meaningless  Absent Spencer picking Iowa there would be a different Hawkeye coach.  My opinion only. Still meaningless  I feel Brands is pressing his will because he NEEDS to. Heaven forbid he try to win. What a selfish monster. Out of every coach in D1 he is arguably the most inclined to perpetuate a cult of personality.  In his own words he is proud of being all of these things. Whats this have to do with developing talent?  A logical deduction is that he is leveraging Spencer for his selfish advantage. Please explain this logic you are talking about because I think you forgot to provide it in this post   Lee is very clear as to his priorities.  If they were taking a cautionary approach he would only be pursuing a single style this year, not both.  And this is an assumption based on nothing at all.

"He better be an *******, he better be a dick, he better be selfish, and he better be mean."  Self-description and projection that you have never heard from another D1 wrestling coach of his stature. Strawman

Whatever - none of these guys are my personal friends and it is too early to dwell on the negative. Ok

 

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1 hour ago, russelscout said:

You don't think its possible that Lee wants to win a team title?

If he wanted a team title don't you think he'd be at PSU?  He'd get 4 of them, and with ease.

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11 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

russellscout, I only asked if he'd have regrets. That question seemed reasonable given that Fix, Gilman and everyone else in the 57Kg conversation is concentrating 100% on freestyle. Except Spencer Lee. Pretty clear you can't have a reasonable discussion without dreaming up all sorts of things that were never brought into play. Too bad, russellscout. 

I just answered your question Tbar. What else do you want? It has been pretty well established that wrestling an NCAA season has helped some wrestlers going into the Worlds/Olympics. Why do you assume that it is absolutely necessary in Spencer's case?

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10 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

If he wanted a team title don't you think he'd be at PSU?  He'd get 4 of them, and with ease.

It pains me to say this, but winning a title at PSU and winning one at Iowa right now is not the same thing. Coming into a program that is trying to get back to the top and being a main component in the change has an appeal to many kids. 

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