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dmm53

FLO's infatuation with Seth Gross

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FLO (and more specifically "Nomad") seems to be a little infatuated with Seth Gross as the very top Hodge contender.   Is Gross really the best NCAA wrestler?

They conveniently emphasize his last two years wrestling (excluding of course 2018-19 when he received an extra year due to an injury after one match).

But they ignore his 14 losses as a redshirt freshman. 

Gross is DNP, 2 and 1 overall in terms of finish.  Note the DNP. 

Compare that with Joseph (1,1,2) or Hall (1, 2, 2) or Valencia (3, 1, 1) or Spencer Lee (1, 1).  Translation: it's no genuine comparison.

Gross has never had a perfect season, though FLO likes to point out that neither Joseph nor Hall have had perfect seasons without acknowledging Gross' lack of perfection or his many, many losses in his freshman year, far, far more than other top contenders.

Gross will also benefit from the absence of Fix, Suriano, and Micic this year.  They are elite competitors.  FLO conveniently ignores that point.  That is a kind of dishonesty by omission.

Is Gross really (or likely) the top wrestler in NCAAs?  I think not. And, I suspect, many others feel this way, too. 

 In no way is Gross better than Lee, Valencia, Hall, or Joseph, whose records, history, and habitual or continued dominance exceed Gross'.

Yes, there is specific Hodge criteria.  But FLO seems to cultivate it's favorites.  Gross has a very good top game, but there are plenty of others who can hang with him on his feet, and if the three Olympic redshirt wrestlers weren't missing this year, Gross might not even make the finals.  133 is much, much weaker this year than last year. 

Although not a Hodge criterion, Gross has none of the freestyle credentials of Hall, Lee or even Valencia, as well.

Let's not anoint someone before they've earned ti.

 

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Are we giving out the hodge in the pre-season based on career accomplishments?  If so I agree, Gross is going to have a hard time winning.  But in terms of putting together a dominant season and winning a title (the primary criteria for the hodge) how is he not in the running?  Hall and Joseph didn't even win titles last year and lee took multiple losses.  I'm not saying that those guys aren't contenders as well, but I fail to see how they have a massive advantage over Gross.

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Good point-I am surprised Gross is at the top instead of Zahid. As you pointed out, Zahid has a comparable bonus point history and better placement at NCAAs.

However, I do think Gross will finish second in the hodge voting. His 2 years after his freshman year show he's a different guy than the 14 loss season. His bonus rate has been incredible, and he is an overwhelming favorite to win a title. 

It will be interesting to see if Zahid has the same bonus rate at 184 and if he wrestles a full season with the Olympics approaching. Not sure if Nomads taking that into consideration, but it may be difficult to give Zahid the hodge if he only wrestles around 15 matches and is focusing on Freestyle. 

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I believe they have noted the missing guys as part of the reason he could win it.   But I agree I’m not sure I’d label him the favorite and I think I’d have to say Zahid as well.   I think I give Gross a better shot than Hall or Joseph though - Hall doesn’t get enough bonus and Joseph always seems to take a loss or two during the regular season 

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3 hours ago, dmm53 said:

FLO (and more specifically "Nomad") seems to be a little infatuated with Seth Gross as the very top Hodge contender.   Is Gross really the best NCAA wrestler?

They conveniently emphasize his last two years wrestling (excluding of course 2018-19 when he received an extra year due to an injury after one match).

But they ignore his 14 losses as a redshirt freshman. 

Gross is DNP, 2 and 1 overall in terms of finish.  Note the DNP. 

Compare that with Joseph (1,1,2) or Hall (1, 2, 2) or Valencia (3, 1, 1) or Spencer Lee (1, 1).  Translation: it's no genuine comparison.

Gross has never had a perfect season, though FLO likes to point out that neither Joseph nor Hall have had perfect seasons without acknowledging Gross' lack of perfection or his many, many losses in his freshman year, far, far more than other top contenders.

Gross will also benefit from the absence of Fix, Suriano, and Micic this year.  They are elite competitors.  FLO conveniently ignores that point.  That is a kind of dishonesty by omission.

Is Gross really (or likely) the top wrestler in NCAAs?  I think not. And, I suspect, many others feel this way, too. 

 In no way is Gross better than Lee, Valencia, Hall, or Joseph, whose records, history, and habitual or continued dominance exceed Gross'.

Yes, there is specific Hodge criteria.  But FLO seems to cultivate it's favorites.  Gross has a very good top game, but there are plenty of others who can hang with him on his feet, and if the three Olympic redshirt wrestlers weren't missing this year, Gross might not even make the finals.  133 is much, much weaker this year than last year. 

Although not a Hodge criterion, Gross has none of the freestyle credentials of Hall, Lee or even Valencia, as well.

Let's not anoint someone before they've earned ti.

 

I dont see the problem with some forcasting on their part. Gross seems as deserving as anyone, has a little different style, and really brings excitment for a team like Wisconsin which is refreshing. I dont need to be reminded that its any ones award at this time or that a lot can happen yet. I know that. They cant have favorites at this time?

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53 minutes ago, Erminio8 said:

Zahid should be #1 Pound for Pound. I don't see how anyone could argue against that right now. 

I’ve thought the same thing but nomad and the Flo guys bring up zahids lose to Daniel Lewis last year as reasoning for having him 2, which is crazy because gross didn’t even wrestle last year when 133 was much tougher then it had been in years past .pretty much everyone else that sits out a year has it held against them but gross seems to be the exception. If any of zahid, Hall or Joseph finish undeafeted idk how you would give gross a hodge over any of them, they all have less then 5 career loses, all had much better freshman years then gross and he’s also on his 3rd team in the last 5 6 years 

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For what it's worth, Gross's last 2 meaningful matches (before yesterday's duals) he lost the takedown battle 5-0 to Wilson and 4-1 to Micic. He still won both matches because of nearfall points but still. It's not like he's untouchable.

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12 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

Hopefully but I can see a situation zahid is 15-0 with 14 bonus point wins .Hall goes like 25-0 and they give it to gross because he ll have wrestled more matches 

I have heard several voters opine on the subject of how they decide who to vote for. At the end of the day, they vote for who they want to vote for. 

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8 minutes ago, Erminio8 said:

For what it's worth, Gross's last 2 meaningful matches (before yesterday's duals) he lost the takedown battle 5-0 to Wilson and 4-1 to Micic. He still won both matches because of nearfall points but still. It's not like he's untouchable.

That’s why I feel like fix or suriano would have a great chance against him . I mean Suriano had one leg and didn’t get turned by Spencer lee , so I can’t see a healthy Suriano being turned by anyone same goes for fix . That’s 2 guys at 133 that would be favored over gross and we all know micic was right there and that’s before his international career took off and gross sat a year. At 174 and 184 there isn’t a college eligible guy that could beat mark hall or zahid except for each other. I don’t see how the hodge favorite is gonna be at a weight where the top 3 are sitting the year out 

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16 minutes ago, Antitroll2828 said:

That’s why I feel like fix or suriano would have a great chance against him . I mean Suriano had one leg and didn’t get turned by Spencer lee , so I can’t see a healthy Suriano being turned by anyone same goes for fix . That’s 2 guys at 133 that would be favored over gross and we all know micic was right there and that’s before his international career took off and gross sat a year. At 174 and 184 there isn’t a college eligible guy that could beat mark hall or zahid except for each other. I don’t see how the hodge favorite is gonna be at a weight where the top 3 are sitting the year out 

Totally agree

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5 minutes ago, Frank_Rizzo said:

Jordan Kutler will beat Mark Hall this year.  Hall peaked his freshman year.  

Two losses in the last two years to the same guy in the National finals but yeah, he probably peaked as a freshman. I'm not a Mark Hall fan but this statement is just absurd.

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13 minutes ago, Frank_Rizzo said:

Jordan Kutler will beat Mark Hall this year.  Hall peaked his freshman year.  

He peaked his freshman year when he lost to brucki and Alex Meyer? He beat zahid like 5-0 last year then lost a 1 point ncaa final ,he’s 5-0 against the 3rd place guy the last 3 years and he’s 16-2 against other all Americans the past 2 seasons, both loses to zahid at ncaas...and he’s 3-0 against Kutler....I think almost any wrestler in the country would “peak there freshman year” to have mark halls career 

Edited by Antitroll2828

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You are all crazy. One of three Utah Valley U wrestlers will win the Hodge. I leave it up to you to figure out which it will be.

Or, one of six wrestlers at the Oregon School coached by the former Iowa guy...

Edited by WillieBoy

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wow, all this hype for Gross is really getting people riled up about the NCAA season. that is unfortunate. instead we should somberly but respectfully observe the results of the regular season without comment and only following the conclusion of the postseason should any judgements be made. the sport is being ruined by all this unnecessary hype imo. 

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27 minutes ago, unknown said:

Nomad is a complete clown. i dont put any weight into what he has to say.  what are his accolades? other than working at FLO? 

Accolades not so relevant. And working at Flo definitely is not an accolade lol.

Kudos to those talented staffers, working behind the scenes, who do good work on Flo films. Not every person at Flo in over one's head!

Edited by jon

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3 hours ago, WillieBoy said:

You are all crazy. One of three Utah Valley U wrestlers will win the Hodge. I leave it up to you to figure out which it will be.

Or, one of six wrestlers at the Oregon School coached by the former Iowa guy...

Matt Findlay undefeated national champion at 149?

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