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8 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Didn't Willie win an award named wrestling journalist of the year or something like that?  I don't think there are rankings for wrestling journalists, but he's gotta be top 10 even if he has fallen off from his award winning 2012 season.

Just for the record: My post you quoted refers to Pyles + whatshisname (the one they call Nomad?). My opinion: Willie's far ahead of those current Flo personnel.

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If I’m being selfish this sucks for my own entertainment for be short-term. Willie was fantastic for FRL and he is the best wrestling journalist in the business.

I can’t imagine a FRL with Pyles and Nomad/Bratke as I won’t be able to deal with CP’s monologues and he needs a strong personality to balance his ego. I fear it’ll just be a big echo chamber without Willie. 

Gotta admire him for his confidence in betting on himself though. He’s so talented and it’ll be cool to see what he does next and hopefully he will make it another fantastic wrestling show or podcast to make some more must watch/listen entertainment.

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1 minute ago, jon said:

Just for the record: My post you quoted refers to Pyles + whatshisname (the one they call Nomad?). My opinion: Willie's far ahead of those current Flo personnel.

Willie is my favorite of the group too.  I wonder what Pyles will say instead of "as always by my mainest man..." at the start of the next show?

Willie and Pyles did jointly win W.I.N. Magazine's journalist of the year award in 2016 for FRL.  So they are both award winning wrestling journalists.  

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3 hours ago, pamela said:

Yah, he wasn’t so great at hot takes and some of the analysis stuff but Flo and FRL should have played more to his strengths. And it was kind of annoying how he was often treated by the FRL guys. Seemed pretty disrespectful at times.

If JO hangs it up after this Olympic cycle, maybe he and Willie could spin up a wrestling related project out in Easton.

I was also annoyed at how the others treated him. It seemed Pyles was always eager to admonish Willie whenever he felt he had a weak argument. It’s one thing to do it to make good radio but it at times was cringey and made FRL hard to listen to.

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Let's acknowledge one point that I think is a big one: If I remember correctly it's Pyles who holds authorship of that impactful Flo story about corruption in the assignment of Rio refs. Good wrestling journalism right there.

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I think is Willie's last article for Flo - https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6587949-by-the-numbers-psus-decade-of-dominance.  His numbers of AAs for 285 are inconsistent between the tables and he seems to have forgotten about Jimmy Lawson.

PSU had 4 AAs at 285 from 2010-2019.  Jimmy Lawson 6th (2015), Nick Nevills 5th (2017), Nick Nevills 7th (2018), and Anthony Cassar 1st (2019).

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24 minutes ago, jon said:

Let's acknowledge one point that I think is a big one: If I remember correctly it's Pyles who holds authorship of that impactful Flo story about corruption in the assignment of Rio refs. Good wrestling journalism right there.

It actually sounds pretty intriguing. What was the problem with it?

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Lol. No joke in that post from me. Good wrestling journalism right there! It's frustrating to see Flo whiff sometimes when, at other times, Flo's hit home runs.

Edited by jon

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22 minutes ago, jon said:

Let's acknowledge one point that I think is a big one: If I remember correctly it's Pyles who holds authorship of that impactful Flo story about corruption in the assignment of Rio refs. Good wrestling journalism right there.

Yes, the article had the United World Wrestling kick Flo to the curb.  Flo had the UWW contract for the foreseeable future for the world level events except the Olympics.  After they broke their investigative story, UWW told them to kick rocks.  UWW is managed by mostly former referees, so they definitely took issue with Flo's article.

Flo wants to be everything to wrestling, a promoter, an event organizer, an event management system, investigative journalism, trying to tear down the system.  Well, they bit the hand that fed them and were told to take a hike.

Edited by neutralpositionref

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Oh and Willie was so restrained. Come on. Their back and forth was the best component and they both took part in it. 

Their back and forth could be great. The difference is I often felt CP was overly aggressive and can be so pedantic. It’s like he would refuse to move on in the show until Willie had admitted defeat.

I get and support arguing and discussing but if two guys disagree after a lengthy back and forth then just accept it and move on rather than trying to get all three of CP, Nomad and Bratke to batter Willie into submission.

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3 minutes ago, wamba said:

Their back and forth could be great. The difference is I often felt CP was overly aggressive and can be so pedantic. It’s like he would refuse to move on in the show until Willie had admitted defeat.

I get and support arguing and discussing but if two guys disagree after a lengthy back and forth then just accept it and move on rather than trying to get all three of CP, Nomad and Bratke to batter Willie into submission.

Recently, I've felt the opposite. Willie would say completely ridiculous things or make an argument that had nothing to do with the actual discussion and it would take Pyles and co. 5 minutes to explain to him what they were actually talking about before the conversation could get back on track. Since his move to PA, I don't think the chemistry has been what it once was. The discussion about the second Yianni-Zain crotchlift scenario was a great example of this.

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3 minutes ago, neutralpositionref said:

Yes, the article had the United World Wrestling kick Flo to the curb.  Flo had the UWW contract for the foreseeable future for the world level events except the Olympics.  After they broke their investigative story, UWW told them to kick rocks.  UWW is managed by mostly former referees, so they definitely took issue with Flo's article.

Flo wants to be everything to wrestling, a promoter, an event organizer, an event management system, investigative journalism, trying to tear down the system.  Well, they bit the hand that fed them and were told to take a hike.

International refereeing is a complete joke at times. I’m so glad Flo ran that piece calling out Rio referee assignments. I think it was a courageous thing to do because Flo knew what the repercussions were going to be. I know a lot of people have many gripes with Flo, but I honestly have no problem paying them my yearly dues. I’m on there every day and watch pretty much everything they cover. If you take advantage of all their services, it’s actually a pretty good deal. 

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16 minutes ago, neutralpositionref said:

Yes, the article had the United World Wrestling kick Flo to the curb.  Flo had the UWW contract for the foreseeable future for the world level events except the Olympics.  After they broke their investigative story, UWW told them to kick rocks.  UWW is managed by mostly former referees, so they definitely took issue with Flo's article.

Flo wants to be everything to wrestling, a promoter, an event organizer, an event management system, investigative journalism, trying to tear down the system.  Well, they bit the hand that fed them and were told to take a hike.

The thing is that corruption has been a major problem in wrestling's past. If there was reason to believe there was a problem, I would be disappointed if flo didn't run that piece.

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The article about the referee assignments was not good journalism.  There was zero actual evidence, such as off the record sources.  Instead, they used a very unscientific statistical analysis to float a theory that while possible, was not actually supported by the evidence they reported.  To state again, it's very possible that the assignments were rigged, but they failed to do the necessary due diligence to support that claim, and instead just floated out an unsubstantiated accusation.  This is literally the opposite of any type of journalistic integrity, but whenever you call flo out on failing to actually do the necessary work that journalists do, they come back claiming that they aren't actually journalists.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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22 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

The article about the referee assignments was not good journalism.  There was zero actual evidence, such as off the record sources.  Instead, they used a very unscientific statistical analysis to float a theory that while possible, was not actually supported by the evidence they reported.  To state again, it's very possible that the assignments were rigged, but they failed to do the necessary due diligence to support that claim, and instead just floated out an unsubstantiated accusation.  This is literally the opposite of any type of journalistic integrity, but whenever you call flo out on failing to actually do the necessary work that journalists do, they come back claiming that they aren't actually journalists.  

How was it unscientific? Genuinely curious. 

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15 minutes ago, CoachWrestling said:

How was it unscientific? Genuinely curious. 

Because the United World Wrestling Bureau (which is mainly run by ex refs) said so! They came back and said an “American PhD” analyzed it without being asked to (lol) and came to a different conclusion (shocking, right?). 

In all seriousness I can’t even imagine watching international wrestling and not wondering about some of these referees. USA has been hosed on so many occasions I can’t even begin to count them. Even if Flo didn’t have “unnamed sources,” I still think it took a lot of guts to use their platform for criticize international refs. 

Edited by goheels1812

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29 minutes ago, CoachWrestling said:

How was it unscientific? Genuinely curious. 

It was unscientific because there was no statistical analysis and no comparison to prior years/controls.  Also, to actually implicate UWW, they can't simply show that some officials were assigned more to some countries than others, they have to back it up with evidence that implicates UWW (e.g. off the record statements or documents).  It was really an irresponsible piece of journalism-more in line with speculation you'd expect from a message board post. Once again, I think it's very possible that the mat assignments were rigged and that their hypothesis was correct, but the accusation they made is analogous to listing all the top recruits that tOSU and PSU get, showing that there are more than ten for each team, and then accusing them of cheating somehow to get above the scholarship limit.  

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1 minute ago, gimpeltf said:

Didn't some of the officiating crew involved get sent home?

The accusation wasn't just that there were bad calls, potentially due to corruption. There were.  It was that UWW rigged the mat assignments.  For the latter accusation, you need to provide evidence.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

The accusation wasn't just that there were bad calls, potentially due to corruption. There were.  It was that UWW rigged the mat assignments.  For the latter accusation, you need to provide evidence.  

That wasn't my point. I see you were talking strictly from a journalistic perspective. When I posted I thought it was felt that Flo was wrong in the assertion about the officiating rather than that it was more of a forum opinion than true investigative journalism.

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

Instead, they used a very unscientific statistical analysis to float a theory that while possible, was not actually supported by the evidence they reported.  To state again, it's very possible that the assignments were rigged, but they failed to do the necessary due diligence to support that claim,

We all know that this wouldnt be the first time, and UWW, then Fila have rigged the reffing before. Why wouldnt you want to know if it began to look like that again even if the proof isnt to the extent that you are requiring? If refs are randomly selected, how did these particular refs all end up with certain countries? Its not a smoking gun, but its worth considering.

Edited by russelscout

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

We all know that this wouldnt be the first time, and UWW, then Fila have rigged the reffing before. Why wouldnt you want to know if it began to look like that again even if the proof isnt to the extent that you are requiring? If refs are randomly selected, how did these particular refs all end up with certain countries? Its not a smoking gun, but its worth considering.

So it turns out that prior to 2016, the ref assignments were not done randomly and were not claimed to be random (they are now random). So the whole statistical analysis wasn’t even necessary-what they needed to prove for their accusation was that the person assigning the refs did so in order to influence the match outcome. To do that takes actual reporting though. I think they had a really good hypothesis, but they failed to do the due diligence necessary to support the claims they made. 

 

And I understand how difficult it would have been to find evidence that supports the claim. But that’s why being a journalist isn’t easy and is such an important job. I do think they could have written a good article about how assignments need to be random in order to avoid corruption, and that it’s possible conspiracy went above the ref to include the assigner..,But to claim it definitively was wrong, even if they are right. 

Edited by Billyhoyle

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