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Bill Farrell Discussion Thread

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Just now, spladle08 said:

Also@nhs67 whats your love for Massa and Macc.

Love Massa at the college level but I've lost faith over the last few years. All the talent in the world but hurdles and what not have derailed my hopes.

Macc is great but he's just a Ty Walz to me. You see more?

I'm a state of Michigan homer, and he does tend to do a bit better at freestyle(his mat game seems to have regressed in folkstyle).  He was #4 in our ladder at 74 this last year, too.  I listened to Michigan Grappler's the Rundown podcast a couple weeks ago and Taylor Massa(Namedrop: https://www.michigangrappler.com/news_article/show/1059426 ) and he's convinced that Massa will achieve his dreams.  I have high hopes, and understand it is entirely fanboy of me.  Hear me out, though.  He has been focusing freestyle only, including traveling abroad with what is probably one of the best international born freestyle head coaches, if not THE best we have in the USofA.  He is listed as NYAC and not CKWC, which means he has moved to New York to shape up and sharpen up for the Farrell.  He is doing everything right, right now.

Macch?  It's another one of those things where you catch it in a lot of the videos and interviews on the various sites where he is always coming up in a positive light, and his results are showing improvement.  There hasn't been a year or tournament where he hasn't shown improvement since he hit NC State.  I mean, Zillmer was world-ranked this year when Macch beat him at the WTT.  He isn't Waltz.  Waltz hasn't improved or regressed from where he is at(as far as on the ladder shows), no disrespect intended.  When you come onto the scene in the 3rd tier(3rd best on down to wherever), behind Gadson, who is behind Snyder, and you don't catch up to Gadson(again-2nd tier), you're not going to make it very far.  Especially the Olympic years where that 3rd tier doubles in size.  I see Cox entering tier 1 if he comes up and Bo entering tier 2 with Gadson.  The only other two people I see having a chance to break into tier 2 would be Zillmer and Macch.  MAYBE Moore, if he is 'finally healthy' as some pundits are saying.  Comparing an athletic 197lber who is still improving while coming up to 97kg(213lbs) to a 240-250lb athletic heavyweight who came down to 213lbs and seemed to plateau rather quickly for senior level isn't accurate I don't think.  They're two entirely different athletes, and it will show if they meet(I hope they do).

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I'm a state of Michigan homer, and he does tend to do a bit better at freestyle(his mat game seems to have regressed in folkstyle).  He was #4 in our ladder at 74 this last year, too.  I listened to Michigan Grappler's the Rundown podcast a couple weeks ago and Taylor Massa(Namedrop: https://www.michigangrappler.com/news_article/show/1059426 ) and he's convinced that Massa will achieve his dreams.  I have high hopes, and understand it is entirely fanboy of me.  Hear me out, though.  He has been focusing freestyle only, including traveling abroad with what is probably one of the best international born freestyle head coaches, if not THE best we have in the USofA.  He is listed as NYAC and not CKWC, which means he has moved to New York to shape up and sharpen up for the Farrell.  He is doing everything right, right now.
Macch?  It's another one of those things where you catch it in a lot of the videos and interviews on the various sites where he is always coming up in a positive light, and his results are showing improvement.  There hasn't been a year or tournament where he hasn't shown improvement since he hit NC State.  I mean, Zillmer was world-ranked this year when Macch beat him at the WTT.  He isn't Waltz.  Waltz hasn't improved or regressed from where he is at(as far as on the ladder shows), no disrespect intended.  When you come onto the scene in the 3rd tier(3rd best on down to wherever), behind Gadson, who is behind Snyder, and you don't catch up to Gadson(again-2nd tier), you're not going to make it very far.  Especially the Olympic years where that 3rd tier doubles in size.  I see Cox entering tier 1 if he comes up and Bo entering tier 2 with Gadson.  The only other two people I see having a chance to break into tier 2 would be Zillmer and Macch.  MAYBE Moore, if he is 'finally healthy' as some pundits are saying.  Comparing an athletic 197lber who is still improving while coming up to 97kg(213lbs) to a 240-250lb athletic heavyweight who came down to 213lbs and seemed to plateau rather quickly for senior level isn't accurate I don't think.  They're two entirely different athletes, and it will show if they meet(I hope they do).
FAIR.
Ps i hope Moore makes me a believer one day, but I've never seen what everyone else sees

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15 hours ago, dmm53 said:

Lewis is kind of like Cox.  Extremely strong and preternaturally athletic.  But regardless of who wins, neither has the creativity, technique,  stamina, or motor of DT or Nolf.  Why can't people recognize these honest differences?  

Bizarre and ignorant post. Typical PSU fanboy behavior.

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3 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

FAIR.
Ps i hope Moore makes me a believer one day, but I've never seen what everyone else sees

I'll learn yeh something well and proper.  Moore had the great benefit his freshman year to be in a weight class that had no true depth or elite competitors.  Pfarr was easily the 2nd best, and with no disrespect intended, who remembers his collegiate accomplishments aside for the numbers gurus and Minnesota fanboys?  Then frosh Moore beating Pfarr made people go "WOW WHEN THESE TWO GRADUATE THIS WEIGHT IS HIS!!" Someone had made a post about Labs of Nebraska a few days ago.  Same scenario.  The depth will build into the weight and he'll be mid-AA and seemingly regress, even though he will have improved.

Also, an unpopular opinion-Nolf's frosh/soph years lost him the Hodge, not his Hidlay matches.  The depth of 157 built around Nolf, whereas the depth of 174(then subsequently 184) was already there and deep.  Nolf was the better wrestler.  Nickal had the tougher(and obviously more diverse) competition through the four years.  A little tidbit I thought of to add(the common trait with the previous paragraph was Moore as a frosh, FYI... in case you're wondering how I got to the tangent).

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1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Bizarre and ignorant post. Typical PSU fanboy behavior.

You sound like the ignorant fool. You don't offer evidence or argument or rational challenges to claims.  You just hurl accusations and execrations.  I bet you are a pathetic defender of the Orange idiot, too.

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1 hour ago, dmm53 said:

Hey Uncle Bernie,  Why don't you offer some evidence you pathetic and pathological POS.

"Lewis is kind of like Cox.  Extremely strong and preternaturally athletic.  But regardless of who wins, neither has the creativity, technique,  stamina, or motor of DT or Nolf.  Why can't people recognize these honest differences?"

You completely discounted the technique, stamina, and creativity of Lewis and Cox, chalking their success up to "preternatural" athleticism. I wonder why that is? This is the same racist discourse that has been going on in sports for years. Black athletes are successful because of their athleticism. White athletes are successful because they're "creative" or "cerebral." It's BS.

You know who else is preternaturally athletic? Jason Nolf and David Taylor. Did you see the cartwheel step over DT hit on Yazdani at worlds? Do you know how freakishly athletic you have to be to hit that? His freshman year, Jason Nolf defended a perfect barzigar finish from Edwin Cooper at Big Tens by simply cartwheeling all the way through the motion. THAT is absolute alien level athleticism.

Yes, they also are creative and have high stamina, but Cox and Lewis also have those things. I don't think I've ever seen J'Den Cox get tired in a wrestling match. Same with Lewis. Lewis held up against Marinelli's pace at NCAAs and Marinelli came after him the entire match. Looked fresh as can be at the end anyway. His tactics in that match were perfect as well. He waited for the perfect moment, lulling Marinelli to sleep, and jumping on a reattack when Marinelli was a step slow recovering. He saw Vincenzo Joseph use a tripod stand up in his semi and from there decided to attempt a nearside cradle in the NCAA finals, a move he doesn't typically hit. That's creativity and intelligence.

J'Den Cox holds perfect position the entire match. He's impenetrable. That's a technical thing. His leg attacks are crisp and clean with no scrambles. He doesn't blow through anybody. He picks them apart with perfect technique, timing, and tactics.

Your comment was a perfect example of the lazy, racially tinged discourse around black athletes that discounts their hard earned skills within their sport by simply attributing their success to natural born athleticism.

Is that enough "evidence" for you, bud?

 

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Just now, nhs67 said:

Nah, bruh. There is some good tidbits in there.

These clowns are just measuring their junk at this point.

I was partially kidding haha. You have some great insights in here nhs. Always appreciate the time you take to analyze matchups and the reasoning you provide behind your predictions. 

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19 hours ago, dmm53 said:

Lewis is kind of like Cox.  Extremely strong and preternaturally athletic.  But regardless of who wins, neither has the creativity, technique,  stamina, or motor of DT or Nolf.  Why can't people recognize these honest differences?  

While they may have had similar results in collegeI put Nolf easily a level below David Taylor especially when it comes to creativity. Obviously he's a much better freestyler than Nolf @ present.

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12 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I got IMar, myself. However I believe Nolf is the clear #2 in this field.

While I certainly think Jason is an outstanding wrestler, I just don't see the love for him right now at this point in his career.  Just comparing him to others, I put him behind Mekhi, Imar & Joseph. 

1. Strength - Last 2. Size - all three wrestled at bigger weights in college and Nolf was not exactly a huge 157. 3. Speed - Last 4. Quickness - Maybe 2nd. 5. Freestyle Wrestling - I would guess third. I would put him ahead of Joseph at this point but certainly not ahead of Lewis or Martinez. I think he might be the best scrambler or close to it but like spladle I've never thought that scramblers did as well in freestyle as they do in folkstyle.

Jason can certainly beat any one of them on a given day but running the gauntlet in this tournament would seem rather steep but he certainly has a chance. Who knows where he'll be with another three or four years under his belt. It's just at this point, right now, I don't see him warranting that much confidence. Let me say that I hope he does well because I was always impressed with him not only as a wrestler but the way he carried himself, sportsmanship, etc etc you get what I'm saying.

Edited by ConnorsDad
SVA

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Interesting.  They are for me, however I had it pulled up before they pulled the entry list.

Also interesting is that there are some brackets with no seed at 4 or 5 and some where they look off. I'm thinking they're still messing with them and I'm in the matrix on this computer, whereas my other computer isn't pulling it up.  This is what is listed as of now.

Seeds showing for me are:

-57-

1-Garrett
2-Cruz
3-Suriano
4-NATO
5-Clark
6-Gross
7-Sanders
8-Perelli
9-Richards

-65-

1-GHulk
2-Oliver
3-Heil
4-Ness
5-Henderson
6-McKenna
7-Meredith
8-Saunders
9-Kolodzik

-74-

1-IMar
2-Nolf
3-Lewis
4-Gantt
5-??NONE??
6-Cenzo
7-Marstellar
8-Kulchytskyy
9-Vallimont
10-Massa
11-Otoguro
12-Sumiyabazar

-86-

1-Ringer
2-Makojev
3-Martin
4-??NONE??
5-Archaia
6-Jackson
7-Pfarr
8-Domanyskyi

-97-

1-Snyder
2-Waltz
3-Macchiavello
4-Zillmer
5-White
6-Kasper
7-Lefever
8-Beazley

-125-

1-Steveson
2-Bradley
3-Dhesi
4-Yemida
5-Molle
6-N.Nevills
7-Ryan
8-A.Nevills

Some of these look like they'll be fixed.

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Fanboy or not, Massa's coaches must really think he has a better chance against IMar if they meet in the finals.  I really don't get that, unless they're using NCAA Folkstyle results to seed.

No Brooks at 86 makes Martin the clear #2 US athlete at 86 to me.

No Sorensen at 74 bums me out.  Was interested to see how he did.

If Heil beats McKenna again, put him on a watch(McKenna).  Their results against common opponents are rather drastic(in favor of McKenna).

57 is the juiciest bracket.

Ringer-Makojev is still the juiciest match possible(unless Martin beats Makajev then it is Lewis-Nolf for me).

125 is Steveson's to lose.  Don't sleep on Dhesi.  He has a freestyle win over Gwiz.

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