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Longtime lurker, but as a Mizzou fan, grad, personal giver of money and overall lover of things #Tigerstyle, this last week got on my nerves. 

From standalone Willie, Flo guys and members of this board talking about the demise of Mizzou and this and that.

I've spent the past few years digging into how these RTC's work and what's the future. The bottom line is there is only 3 functional RTC's in the country and you could make a strong discussion there is really only 2. 

I'm not going to regurgitate the role, definition or ultimate purpose of the RTC system, but here are the broad facts: 

1.) HWC and NLWC are the only two functional, long-term RTC's in the country. They both have multiple athletes that almost exclusively rely on the funds raised/generated from the RTC to live, have stable fundraising preventing financial shortfalls and can successfully transition athletes from college to post-grad with NO need for endorsements beyond basic services like camps/part-time coaching etc. 

2.) Every other RTC cannot say that. We do not know exactly what Nebraska provides Jordan Burroughs, but we know from his advertising deals that his image/likeness provides enough income to have an upper-middle class lifestyle. Therefore, Nebraska RTC is paying for James Green, who has been able to supplement his RTC monies with world championship success. 

3.) Go down the line: Ohio RTC, Finger Lakes RTC, Cowboy RTC - None of these RTC's are successfully supporting MULTIPLE athletes over an entire Olympic Quad. Sure, Finger Lakes can bring in Jordan Oliver for a year or so. That's no different than Mizzou currently employing Dom Bradley and Alan Waters for this Olympic run. 

4.) There is a general ignorance around college fundraising, declining national enrollment and cuts in upper-education. Simply put, it's not a lack of effort from these programs/coaches/fundraisers. The RTC system is a.) Not a long-term, sustainable addition for a vast majority of Wrestling programs and b.) exacerbates the lack of parity in college wrestling and potentially harms other institutions. 

 

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Ohio RTC has definitely been supporting multiple athletes, and has been for a long time.  Synder/McKenna just left and Logan retired, but that doesn't change that they've been a full time, active RTC with multiple world level guys for a long time. 

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9 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Is it safe to say that Mizzou is now in full panic mode?

Asking for a friend.

No. We have arguably the #2 class for 2020. Season ticket and fundraising is at an all-time high and we have the best wrestler in America going to AWA and throughout Missouri promoting Tigerstyle. 


Mizzou is doing great.

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16 minutes ago, Gantry said:

Ohio RTC has definitely been supporting multiple athletes, and has been for a long time.  Synder/McKenna just left and Logan retired, but that doesn't change that they've been a full time, active RTC with multiple world level guys for a long time. 

That's why I said 3. 

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RTCs help the rich get richer, no doubt about it. But there’s more than two rich programs in the country. NJ RTC has a ton of potential. FLWC is already in the elite group. NYC RTC certainly has the alumni base to  become a big deal.

Aside from that quibble, I agree with the gist of your post. 

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3 hours ago, MizzouGrad said:

No. We have arguably the #2 class for 2020. Season ticket and fundraising is at an all-time high and we have the best wrestler in America going to AWA and throughout Missouri promoting Tigerstyle. 


Mizzou is doing great.

Understood.

Don't feed the trolls, then. You creating an account to make that as your first post indicates that there is, in fact, concerns. Enough for you to wish to quell any sort of doubt in the 'masses' before it becomes uncontrollable.

Anybody with a decent mind of the sport knows that Mizzou will be decent for the foreseeable still.

Flo has to incite extremes. It is about clicks for them.

Many of us trolls? We understand. Others that don't? Oh well.

Just do us a favor and calm your knockers, bub.

Devil's advocate: The three biggest grappling names as far as Mizzou have left the last 24 months for better professional and/or personal prospects. You certain you're not freaking out a little here? I am. For you. Or my friend is, at least. They also just got hammered by a VTech squad in a dual that should have been competitive. It wasn't.

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Couldn’t agree more. Blaming it on “lazy” coaches is beyond ignorant. As I’ve said for quite a while, RTCs are great for our international program but bad for many, if not nearly all as you’ve pointed out, of our NCAA programs. Every coach should not be expected to run (the easy part) or fund (the hard part because coaches aren’t salesman) an RTC.
 

Fund 5 true regional training centers throughout the country. All the coaches could send their athletes there and they could run youth stuff to generate income just like many of the RTCs are already doing.  

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5 hours ago, MizzouGrad said:

Longtime lurker, but as a Mizzou fan, grad, personal giver of money and overall lover of things #Tigerstyle, this last week got on my nerves. 

From standalone Willie, Flo guys and members of this board talking about the demise of Mizzou and this and that.

I've spent the past few years digging into how these RTC's work and what's the future. The bottom line is there is only 3 functional RTC's in the country and you could make a strong discussion there is really only 2. 

I'm not going to regurgitate the role, definition or ultimate purpose of the RTC system, but here are the broad facts: 

1.) HWC and NLWC are the only two functional, long-term RTC's in the country. They both have multiple athletes that almost exclusively rely on the funds raised/generated from the RTC to live, have stable fundraising preventing financial shortfalls and can successfully transition athletes from college to post-grad with NO need for endorsements beyond basic services like camps/part-time coaching etc. 

2.) Every other RTC cannot say that. We do not know exactly what Nebraska provides Jordan Burroughs, but we know from his advertising deals that his image/likeness provides enough income to have an upper-middle class lifestyle. Therefore, Nebraska RTC is paying for James Green, who has been able to supplement his RTC monies with world championship success. 

3.) Go down the line: Ohio RTC, Finger Lakes RTC, Cowboy RTC - None of these RTC's are successfully supporting MULTIPLE athletes over an entire Olympic Quad. Sure, Finger Lakes can bring in Jordan Oliver for a year or so. That's no different than Mizzou currently employing Dom Bradley and Alan Waters for this Olympic run. 

4.) There is a general ignorance around college fundraising, declining national enrollment and cuts in upper-education. Simply put, it's not a lack of effort from these programs/coaches/fundraisers. The RTC system is a.) Not a long-term, sustainable addition for a vast majority of Wrestling programs and b.) exacerbates the lack of parity in college wrestling and potentially harms other institutions. 

 

Not trying to be a smartas* but not sure what “make a strong discussion” means...but there’s no making a strong argument that there are only 2 functional RTC’s in the country today. After all as a Mizzou fan you should know since you just lost your best senior level prospect since Cox to Iowa because of the strength of the Hawkeye’s RTC. And NJRTC and Cornell are not just functioning, they’re thriving. 

There is no debating the fact that the NLWC is far and away the #1 RTC right now, but despite their dominance I think it’s very, very possible they produce 1 of our 6 Olympic reps next year. Personally I’m taking Cox over Taylor at 86 and Yianni over Zain at 65 (though those - especially the latter - are far from locks). That would make Snyder the only NLWC rep on the team...and unless he beats or really pushes Sadulaev not many people will consider Snyder making the team and medaling a feather in the cap of the NLWC.

There are 6 Olympic weights and the NLWC has no serious contender to make the team at 3 of the 6 weights. There’s nobody in that room that’s genuinely in the mix for 57 or 74, and I don’t think Cassar is a serious contender in freestyle this quad...trials are just too soon after the NCAA season ends and he has very little freestyle experience. In freestyle I don’t see him beating Gwiz, Coon, or Gable. 

Edited by MDogg

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I’m assuming OP is referring to this article - https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5068724-tax-forms-reveal-stunning-finances-at-nittany-lion-wrestling-club

Not sure how much has changed since 2015, but the point about having only 2 “long-term” RTC’s may not be too far off based on this data.  With other expenses, you can’t pay too many people a decent salary with less than $500k in assets.

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Carl attracts donations. That fact is indisputable and unlikely to change anytime soon. NLWC will be exceptionally funded for as long as Cael keeps winning regularly. 

But a few things:

1. That article is four years old. 
2. There are other schools with richer alumni and all it takes is one exceptionally wealthy one to take an interest in the sport (see Cornell, Princeton)

3. Net assets matter, but more important is free cash flow. For the folks who don’t speak accounting, one is a snapshot in time of how much is “in the bank” while the other is a measure of how much much money is coming in and how quickly. None of that data shows that. 
 

It’s not just about two RTCs. But the point that very few schools can compete in a wrestling arms race is correct. 

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On 11/9/2019 at 6:16 AM, wrestlingnerd said:

3. Net assets matter, but more important is free cash flow. For the folks who don’t speak accounting, one is a snapshot in time of how much is “in the bank” while the other is a measure of how much much money is coming in and how quickly. None of that data shows that. 

That’s the definition of revenue, not free cash flow.

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29 minutes ago, MDogg said:

That’s the definition of revenue, not free cash flow.

Wrong. Revenue is top line. Not net of anything. Gives you zero idea how much cash there is building in the business. FCF is the truest way to measure whether your balance sheet is likely to increase in cash over time or not. 

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3 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Wrong. Revenue is top line. Not net of anything. Gives you zero idea how much cash there is building in the business. FCF is the truest way to measure whether your balance sheet is likely to increase in cash over time or not. 

 “while the other is a measure of how much much money is coming in and how quickly”

What about your definition indicates anything is being netted?  “How much money is coming in” is clearly the definition of revenue. 

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2 hours ago, MDogg said:

 “while the other is a measure of how much much money is coming in and how quickly”

What about your definition indicates anything is being netted?  “How much money is coming in” is clearly the definition of revenue. 

Ummmm.... the fact that we were talking about net assets in the same sentence?? Revenue is completely irrelevant in that context.

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Ummmm.... the fact that we were talking about net assets in the same sentence?? Revenue is completely irrelevant in that context.

 
“while the other is a measure of how much much money is coming in and how quickly”
 
Ummmm...how does the fact you referenced net assets in that same sentence justify this incorrect definition or “free cash flow?” It doesn’t. I’ve got a CPA and CFA so I’m not one of the folks “who don’t speak accounting” you referenced in your original post. 

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On 11/8/2019 at 3:36 PM, nhs67 said:

 

Devil's advocate: The three biggest grappling names as far as Mizzou have left the last 24 months for better professional and/or personal prospects. You certain you're not freaking out a little here? I am. For you. Or my friend is, at least. They also just got hammered by a VTech squad in a dual that should have been competitive. It wasn't.

Mizzou forfeited 133, wrestled their backup at 141 (who got pinned) and their 3rd string hwt (Elam is redshirting).  No fan of Mizzou (or folks that know anything about the team) are worried based on that dual.

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:
 
“while the other is a measure of how much much money is coming in and how quickly”
 
Ummmm...how does the fact you referenced net assets in that same sentence justify this incorrect definition or “free cash flow?” It doesn’t. I’ve got a CPA and CFA so I’m not one of the folks “who don’t speak accounting” you referenced in your original post. 

Am I supposed to be impressed by those letters? No offense, but they're table stakes in finance. 

This is not an accounting forum. I simply said that while I agree with him at a high level, nothing on the Flo article referenced suggests only two RTCs are financially viable because net assets (a very balance sheet-focused snapshot view) are not necessarily indicative of which RTCs are financially viable. I suggested a better metric, which is unavailable, is free cash flow, since (as you should know) it is much more indicative of the trend that those net assets are likely to take. Saying "how much money is coming in and how quickly" in that context is not incorrect. Incomplete, perhaps, but again, what is the point of being complete with terminology used in finance on here? 

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RTCs are the new requirement in the college landscape for recruiting the elite prospects.  It is hard, hypothetically, for a place like West Point to keep elite commits with international goals because there isnt a stable of guys at their RTC.  

I'll give some hypotheticals:

1.  Hypothetically, West Point recruits an under the radar stud who wins dual titles in Akron at 182 plus win bronze in freestyle cadet worlds...only to, hypothetically, decommit and hypothetically go to, oh any random place...lets just say, Iowa.  

2.  Another hypothetical scenario is if some elite recruit from some prep school in any arbitrary state...lets say Maryland, has a brother that currently goes to West Point.  You would figure that they might want to join their brother.  Hypothetically, lets say they dream of being a world and olympic champ WHILE wrestling in college.  Then, hypothetically, they go somewhere with a RTC making that goal more likely.     

That being said, I don't think that any RTC can beat the pay and benefits of the military's World Class Athlete Program.  You get a salary of your rank plus housing/utilities allowance based on zip code.  Full medical and dental.  Their RTC is at Colorado Springs.  But, you have to wait until you graduate to go there.  

What West Point needs to lobby DOD for is allowing the COMMISSIONING of volunteer assistant coaches as officers so they can get the salary and benefits comprable to funded RTCs.  For that to happen, WCAP would need to branch to the West Point Wrestling Club and have a contingent there.  Since the amount of slots for soldiers of all ranks at West Point is approved by congress, congress would have to approve that move.  Then there is the other part where any wrestlers who want to join would have to go through OCS (Basic training, OCS school then Specialized Branch schooling called BOLC).  It would be a hard sell, but if 3-5 years wrestling doesn't pan out, they have a career to continue OR they can get released from service.

WEIRD enough is that Penn State has a WCAP contingent training at NLWC!!!  The freestyle WCAP guys train there while the greco guys reside at colorado springs.  That hurts!  Not too bad because PSU seems to refer lots of talent to WCAP.           

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